THE FUTURE

The Future Of Humanity According To The Rosicrucians - Rudolf Steiner - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j62ZFdMscWU

Transcript:

(00:13) you will not be good teachers if you focus only upon what you do and not upon what you are what Humanity thinks today that will be so in the future a Humanity that thinks materialistically will produce frightful beings in the future and a Humanity that thinks spiritual thoughts will work upon and transform the future organism so that beautiful human bodies will proceed from it it is now our task to speak somewhat of the progress of human evolution in the future and of what one calls initiation It Is by means of initiation

(01:03) that present day man passes in advance through stages of Life which are otherwise only passed through by Humanity in the future if we occupy ourselves with the first problem it may seem to you audacious to try to speak about the future or even that it is impossible to find out anything of the future of man nevertheless if you will consider the matter a little you will find that the view that one can know something about the future is not so unfounded after all you have only to compare these things with what the

(01:38) ordinary researcher the natural scientist for example can know with regard to future events he can tell you definitely that if he mixes together oxygen hydrogen and sulfur under certain conditions sulfuric acid always results one can say exactly what happens when one intercepts raise from a mirror in fact this goes even further in regard to things of external life one can predict eclipses of the sun and moon for indefinitely long periods of time how is it possible to do this because one knows the laws of physical

(02:20) life now if someone knows the spiritual laws of life from these laws he can likewise say what must come about in the future here however a question question generally arises which weighs heavily in people's minds it is so easy to imagine that it is a contradiction of freedom of man's own voluntary acts if it could be known in advance what will happen this too is an incorrect idea when you combine sulfur hydrogen and oxygen under certain conditions sulfuric acid arises that is determined by the laws of the

(02:58) combination whether you do it however depends on your will and so it is also in the spiritual course of human evolution what will happen will be done by man in entire freedom of Will and the higher a man develops the Freer he will be nor must one think that it is already decided what a man will do in the future because one can see it in advance most people however have no right understanding of this problem and in fact it presents very great difficulties since ancient times philosophers have tormented themselves

(03:39) with the question of human freedom and the law of predestined phenomena practically all that has been written in this field is extremely unsatisfactory for as a rule people cannot distinguish between foreseeing and being foreordained seeing in advance is in fact no different from looking out to some distant spot in space if you look in space to a point far off let us say the corner of the street over there and you see a man giving a penny to another have you brought about this action has it been caused through the fact that you

(04:17) see it no you only see that he does it and that exercises no pressure on his act now in a certain respect it is like this in time the problem is people people cannot grasp it let us suppose you are reincarnated in a couple of thousand years you then do something of your own free will that is the same as the example of the gift of the penny under certain circumstances The Seer sees what is done in the future and this future Act is just as little determined by the present point of time as the gift of the penny by the point of space

(04:58) people often say if one sees that something will happen then it is actually predetermined but then one is confounding the present with the future in fact it would be no prevision into the future if it were already predestined you are not seeing something that is already there but something that has first to come you must grasp with exactness the concept of seeing into the future it must be exercised and practiced in patient meditation then only does one find it possible to understand these things a right after these introductory words we

(05:50) will now speak of some few things that can be said about the evolution of humanity in the future we have reached the point where Humanity has descended most deep deeply into matter where men turn to account their spiritual forces in the construction and manufacturer of instruments and machines that serve the personal life connected with this was an ever increasing densification both of mankind and the Earth as a whole we have seen that the mineral Kingdom as we call it the densest part of the earth only arose at a definite point of time in our

(06:28) Evolution it was only then that man entered upon his present Earthly development and the division of the Sexes and other phenomena went handin hand with it at that time when the human being had not as yet entered this physical development which contains a mineral Kingdom he too was of a much finer softer nature just to give some idea of it let us note how the reproduction of the human race took place in those ancient times before the two Sexes were in existence at that time the human being who was still of double

(07:06) sex and of a thinner finer corporeality brought forth another being from itself this did not take place as it does today but somewhat as in spiritualistic seances the etheric body of some other being proceeds from The Medium that gives you more or less a picture of this materialization from oneself the manner of human propagation in ancient times it was like an out pressure from human beings who were ripe to continue their own development thus you see that with the densification of man in the cosmos is connected a descent

(07:45) into the world of matter and another force is connected with it which could never have developed without it egoism egoism has a good and a bad side it is the foundation of human Independence and freedom but in its reverse aspect the foundation too of all that is bad and evil but man had to go through this force of egoism if he was to learn to do good of his own free will through the forces which had guided him previously he would always have been impelled to the good it had however been possible for him to go his own way just

(08:26) as he has descended he must now Ascend again to spirituality and as The Descent is linked with the predominance of egoism so does the ascent depend on men's selflessness their feeling of sympathy for one another becoming stronger and stronger mankind has evolved through various epochs first through the old Indian then the Persian the Egyptian caldian Babylonian the Greco Latin to the present the fifth Epoch and this will be replaced by a Sixth and as human evolution is working towards this it is working at the same time to the

(09:06) overcoming of the principle that has been strongest since the time when the aetheric body United with the point in the brain of which I spoke to you yesterday that was the time of the fall into the deepest egoism man was also egotistic in his earlier Evolution but it was then in a different way the ego ISM that enters so deeply into the soul as in our present age is inseparable from the predominating materialism a spiritual age will denote the overcoming of this egoism therefore Christianity and all movements imbued

(09:46) with genuine religious life have worked consciously towards breaking through all the old Blood Ties Christianity has made a radical statement in the words he who forsaketh not father mother wife child brother sister cannot be my disciple this indicates nothing less than that in place of the ancient Blood Ties there must enter the spiritual bond between soul and soul between one human being and another the only question now is what are the ways and means by which Humanity May attain spirituality that is the overcoming of

(10:40) materialism and at the same time reach what may be called the bond of Brotherhood the expression of universal human love one might imagine that Universal human love need only be stressed strongly enough and that then it must come about or that one should find unions that aim the goal of a universal human love occultism is never of this opinion on the contrary the more a man speaks of universal brotherly love and Humanity becoming in a sense Intoxicated by them the more egotistic he becomes for precisely as there is a

(11:19) lust of the senses so is there a lust of the soul and it is in fact a refined voluptuousness to say I will become morally higher and higher this to be sure is not a thought that creates the ordinary conventional egoism but it does lead to a subtle form of egoism it is not by emphasizing love or sympathy that they are generated in the course of Mankind's Evolution mankind will be led to that Bond of Brotherhood far rather through something else namely through spiritual knowledge itself there is no other means of bring bringing about a

(12:00) universal human Brotherhood than the spreading of occult knowledge throughout the world one may talk forever of love and the Brotherhood of Man one may find thousands of unions they will not lead to the desired goal however well-intentioned they may be the point is to use the right means to know how to found this Bond of Brotherhood only those whose lives are grounded in Universal occult truth valid for all men find themselves together in the one truth as the sun unites the plants which strive towards it and which yet remain

(12:40) individually separate so must the truth to which all are striving be a uniform one then all men find themselves together but men must work energetically towards Truth for only then can they live together in harmony the objection might be made surely all all are striving towards the truth but there are different standpoints and therefore strife and dissension arises that denotes a knowledge of truth that is not sufficiently thorough one must not plead that there may be different standpoints one must first experience that truth is

(13:19) single and indivisible it does not depend on the popular vote it is true in itself or would you put it to the vote as to whether the the three angles of a triangle are equal to 180° whether millions of people admit that or not a single one when you have recognized it it is true for you there is no democracy about truth and those who are not yet in harmony have not penetrated far enough into the truth then originates all quarreling over truth it may be said yes but someone asserts this and another that that in

(13:59) occult matters in genuine occultism that is not so it is the same in occult things as in materialistic things there too someone asserts this and another that but then one of them is false even so is it in genuine occultism it is only that people often have a bad habit of judging occult matters before they have been understood the aim of the sixth Epoch of humanity will be to popularize occult truth in the widest circles that is the mission of that Epoch and the society that is united in spirit has the task of

(14:49) carrying this occult truth everywhere right into life and applying it practically this is precisely what is lacking in our age only look at how our Epoch is searching and how no one can find the right solution there are innumerable problems the educational problem the feminist movement medicine the social problem and the food question and people doctor away at these problems endless articles are written and each talks from his own standpoint without being willing to study what lies at the center namely the occult truth it is not a matter of

 having some abstract knowledge of the truths of spiritual science but of applying them directly to life of studying the social problem the educational problem in fact the whole range of human life from the standpoint of real occult wisdom but then it might be urged one would have to know the highest wisdom that arises from the mistake of thinking one must always understand what one makes use of in life but that is not necessary understanding of the highest principles often comes much later than their application if mankind had wished to wait in the matter of digestion till the laws of digestion were understood then the evolution of mankind would not have been possible so too one does not need to be aware of all spiritual laws in order to let spiritual science flow into everyday life that is precise prely the way in which the Rossy crucian method deals with the spiritual fewer abstractions but instead the study of the problems of everyday life do you think that the child knows all the grammatical rules of speech when it has learn to speak first it learns to speak and then learns grammar so we must lay stress on the value it has for a man with the help of spiritual teachings to attack what lies directly around him before he occupies himself with what is to be found in the highest worlds with information concerning the astral plane and devachan this is the only way to understand what exists in our surroundings and where we ourselves must play our part and we shall find that it is our task to bind together through the unifying bonds of spiritual wisdom Those portions of humanity who have been torn out of the old bonds of blood and race and then in as much as we evolve from the fifth into the sixth and then into the seventh Epoch the ancient connection of race and blood will be increasingly lost man kind becomes Freer of physical ties in order to form groups from the aspect of the spirit it was a bad habit in theosophy to speak of races as if they would always remain the concept of race loses its meaning in the immediate future to State incessantly that seven and again seven races have always evolved in the world is the speculative extension of an idea that only holds good for our age Looking Backward and forwards it has never been said from Clairvoyant vision from occultism races have Arisen as everything else arises and as everything again dies out so will races die out too those who have always only spoken of races will have to accustom themselves to making their ideas fluid it is only a convenient way of talking if one looks but a little into the future those ideas which appli to past and present are already no longer valid it is most important that people should not consider that something they have once brought into a beautiful concept is a truth for all time men must get into the habit of making ideas fluid of recognizing that ideas change that will be an advance the ability to pass over from rigidly dogmatic ideas to mobile ones must be cultivated in those who would be the bearers of the future for just as times change so must our ideas change too if we would understand the times Souls live now in a human body which you distinctly perceive with the senses by what means has it Arisen it was very different in earlier times when the soul descended in fact for our present material Outlook even comically different the soul took up its Abode in it by what means has the human being evolved to its present form because the soul has itself worked in the body during all its incarnations you can form an idea of how the soul has worked on the body if you consider what possibility has remained to the man of our materialistic age to work upon his body he can work relatively but very little on his dense physical body see how you work temporarily on the body and its physiognomy something for instance causes you Terror and anxiety the impression of anxiety and fear makes you go pale and your physical appearance is affected in the same way by the blush of Shame this passes away again but you see how it is caused something acts on the soul and the effects extend to the blood and then to the physical body changing the very appearance the effect can be still more intensive you know that people who lead a life of thought have it very much in their power to create an impression on their countenance of their intellectual work one can observe whether or not a man has lived a life of mental activity so men still work on their external expression and a man of noble feelings displays them in dignified movements these are but very slight relics of how man has worked on himself for millions of years whereas nowadays you can only bring the blood to the cheek and drive it away again in earlier times man was entirely under the influence of a picture World which was the expression of a world of spirit the effect of this influence was that the human being could work much more creatively on his body at the same time the body was also more soft and yielding there was a time when you could not merely stretch out your hand when you could not only point with the finger but when you could send your will into your hand and so form it that you could thrust out the fingers as continuations there was a time when the foot was not yet permanent but could be extended as a continuation when man needed it thus through the pictures which he received from the surrounding world man shaped his own body today in our material age this molding is unimaginably slow but a time will come again when it will proceed more rapidly in the future man will again acquire more influence over his physical corporeality we shall see when we consider initiation by what means he gains this influence although he may not reach it in one life yet he will be able to do much for the next Incarnation thus it is man himself who will bring about the future future for of his body in as much as the human being becomes softer and softer in as much as he separates himself from the hard Parts he is approaching his future an age comes when man will live above his Earthly portion as it were as In Time Gone by this condition which is comparable to your present sleep condition will then be replaced by another when the human being will be able to draw his etheric body out of his physical body at will it will be as if the denser part of man were here Below on earth and the human being will make use of it from outside like an instrument man will no longer bear his body about and live within it but will float above it the body will itself have become rarified and finer that seems a fantastic idea today but one can be distinctly aware of it from spiritual laws just as one reckons future eclipses of the sun and moon from the laws of astronomy above all it will be upon the reproductive force that man will work he will transform it many people cannot imagine that there will ever be a different generative process but it will be so the process of generation will be altered the generative process and all that stands in connection with it will pass over in the future to another organ the organ that is already preparing to become the future organ of generation is the human larynx today it can only bring forth vibrations of the air can only impart to the air what lies in the word that goes forth from it so that the vibrations correspond to the word later on not only will the word press forward in its Rhythm from the larynx but it will be irradiated by man it will be penetrated by every every substance just as today the word only becomes Airwaves so in the future man's inner being his own likeness which today is in his word will issue from the larynx the human being will proceed from the human being man will speak forth man and this in the future will be the birth of a new human being that he is spoken forth by another such things throw a definite light on phenomena in our surroundings which no natural science can explain that transformation of the reproductive Force which will again become free of sex takes over then the functions of the earlier reproduction hence in the male organism at the age of puberty a transformation also takes place in the larynx the voice becomes deeper this shows you clearly how these two things are interconnected thus occult ISM throws light again and again on Facts of Life and illumines phenomena for which materialistic science can give you no explanation and just as the organ of the larynx will be transformed so too will the human heart it is the organ that stands in Intimate connection with the circulation now science believes that the heart is a kind of pump that is a grotesquely fantastic idea occultism has never made such a fantastic statement as has modern materialism it is the feelings of the soul that give rise to the movement of the blood the soul drives the blood and the Heart moves because it is driven by the blood thus the truth is exactly the opposite of what materialistic science States man today however cannot guide his heart as he will when he feels anxiety it beats Master since the feeling acts on the blood and this quickens the motion of the heart but what is suffered involuntarily by man today will later at a higher stage of evolution be in his own power later on he will drive his blood by his own valtion and cause the movement of his heart as today he moves the muscles of his hand the heart with its peculiar structure is a Crux a riddle for modern science it has diagonally striped fibers which are otherwise only to be found in voluntary muscles why because the heart has not yet reached the end of its Evolution but is an organ of the future because it will in the future be a voluntary muscle thus it already shows the rudiments of this in its structure all that goes on in the soul changes the organism and if you now imagine the man who is able to create his own likeness through the spoken word whose heart has become a voluntary muscle who will have aled yet other organs then you have a conception of the future of the human race in future planetary incarnations of our Earth Humanity will progress on our Earth as far as it is possible under the influence of a mineral Kingdom this mineral Kingdom in spite of its having Arisen the last will be the first to disappear again in its present form man will then no longer build up his body from mineral substances as today the coming human body will only incorporate into itself substances of a plant nature all that works in man today as minerals will disappear in order to give you a seemingly grotesque example the human saliva of today is a mineral product for the physical body is an interaction of mineral processes when man has ended his mineral Evolution he will no longer have a mineral spittle it will be of a plant nature man will so to speak spit flowers glands will no longer secrete what is mineral but a plant-like substance the mineral kingdom is brought to an end by The evolutionary return of humanity to plant-like existence thus the human being lives over to Jupiter in as much as he expels all that is mineral and passes over to the creativeness of the plant and in as much as he then later passes over to animal creation the animals will be different from those of today when his heart will have progressed so far that it can appear as a Creator then he will create in the animal world as today he creates in the mineral Kingdom and then the Venus condition will arise and when he can create His Kind by virtue of uttering his own likeness then is the meaning of evolution complete then is the word fulfilled let us create man in our own image only by observing this aspect that the body will be molded from the soul will man really transform the human race only through a thinking trained in the occult and spiritual sense will there appear what has been described as the transformation of the heart and the larynx what Humanity thinks today that will it be so in the future a Humanity that thinks materialistically will produce frightful beings in the future and a Humanity that thinks spiritual thoughts so work upon and transform the future organism so that beautiful human bodies will proceed from it we have two streams today a great materialistic one that fills the

(31:01) Earth and a small spiritual stream that is restricted to but few human beings distinguish between Soul Evolution and race Evolution do not think that if races pass over to a grotesque form that the soul too does the same all materialistically thinking Souls work on the production of evil race formations and what is done of a spiritual nature causes the bringing forth of a good race just as mankind has brought forth that which has retrogressed in the animals plants and minerals so will a portion split off and represent the evil part of

(31:43) humanity and in the body which meanwhile will have grown soft the inner Badness of the soul will Express itself externally just as older conditions that have degenerated to the ape species seem grotesque to us today so do materialistic races remain at the standpoint of evil and will people the Earth as evil races it will lie entirely with Humanity as to whether a soul will remain in the bad race or will Ascend by spiritual culture to a good race these are things that we must know if we would live in the future with real knowledge

(32:24) otherwise we go through the world with our eyes Bound for forces are working in humanity which we must recognize and to which we must pay attention a man would neglect his duty to mankind if he did not wish to become acquainted with the forces that work in the direction of right Evolution or against it knowledge for the sake of knowledge would be egotism he who wants to know in order to look into higher worlds acts egotistically but one who tries to carry this knowledge into the direct practice of everyday life furthers the advance of

(33:01) the coming evolution of humanity it is extremely important for us to learn more and more to put into practice what exists as the conception of spiritual science so you see the spiritual movement has a quite definite goal namely to mold future Humanity in advance and the goal can be reached in no other way than through the acceptance of spiritual wisdom this is the thought that lives in the mind of one who conceives spiritual science as the great task of mankind he thinks of it as Inseparable From Evolution and he regards it not as an object of Desire but as a task and Duty that is laid upon him and the more we acknowledge this the more rapidly do we approach the future form of humanity in the sixth age as at that time in ancient Atlantis in the neighborhood of modern Island the advanced human beings were drawn to the east in order to find the new civilizations so have we now the task of working towards the great moment in the sixth age when Humanity will undertake a great spiritual Ascent we must Endeavor to come out of materialism again and societies with a spiritual aim must undertake to guide Humanity not from motives of arrogance and pride but as a the task and Duty so a certain group of people must join together in order to prepare the future but this Union is not to be conceived of geographically all ideas of locality have then lost their meaning because it is no longer a question of racial relationships the point will be for people over the whole earth to find each other spiritually in order to Fashion the future in a positive way for this reason 400 years ago when our Epoch plunged the deepest into matter the rosicrucian Brotherhood emphasized that practical spiritual science which contains an answer to all problems of everyday life here you have the ascending Evolution following the descending just as old knowledge acts as a disintegrating Force as is shown in mou's criticism of language so the spiritual ual current of thought seeks the unifying Bond of spiritual wisdom hence arises the new school of initiation which is directly concerned with leading Humanity over into a new cycle of time thus to the principle of human evolution is connected to the concept of initiation thank you for venturing with us through the shadowed corridors of the Unseen if Whispers from Beyond have stirred the Ember of curiosity within you grant us your favor with a like and Embark further on this enigmatic journey by subscribing to Vox aulta together we shall unravel the veils that shroud the Arcane Mysteries of the occult realm Illuminating the path Less Traveled where Secrets await the daring of heart

Insanely Strange Things Caught On Live TV....

Mapping Out The DMT Hyperspace

### Summary

The event discussed mapping out the DMT hyperspace with three speakers sharing their expertise on the subject. They explored the neuroscience, phenomenology, and potential applications of DMT experiences, including the possibility of forming relationships with entities in the DMT space.

### Highlights

- 🧠 DMT experiences can feel more real than reality due to brain dysregulation and the intense alien nature of the space.

- 🧬 The brain may struggle to perceive more than four dimensions, making DMT experiences feel authentic and familiar.

- 🧘 Plans to involve high-level Buddhist meditation masters and other spiritual practitioners in DMT research to explore the effects on experienced meditators.

### Keyword

DMT, hyperspace, neuroscience, entities, mapping, phenomenology, relationships, meditation masters, spiritual practitioners

Mapping Out The DMT Hyperspace - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyXp7thv00

Transcript:

(00:00) okay great um let's get started um thank you so much everybody for joining us uh both in person at Oxford uh and online here on Zoom um I have a bit of a shoddy internet connection so I apologize if it goes awry we've got a truly International crowd today so uh Chris Timmerman is uh joining the audience in person at Oxford uh Daniel McQueen is calling in from Colorado uh and Andrew Gallimore is calling in from Okinawa Japan uh where it is currently 4 30 a.

(00:35) m sorry from Tokyo from Tokyo um where it's for 4 30 in the morning so Andrew you're a real trooper um thank you so much for joining us um so this is uh mapping out DMT hyperspace um we are very lucky to be joined today by three incredible speakers uh Andrew galmore Chris Timberman and Daniel McQueen will be speaking in that order uh let me just introduce the three speakers very briefly uh Dr Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist pharmacologist chemiston writer who's been interested in the

(01:07) neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is an author of a number of Articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug DMT and its effects on the brain and Consciousness we recently collaborated with DNT Pioneer Dr Rick Strassman author of DMT The Spirit Molecule to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended Journeys in DMT space also known as dmtx his current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gaining access to extra-dimensional realities

(01:36) and how this can be understood in terms of the Neuroscience of information he currently lives and works in Japan next Chris Timmerman obtained a BSC in Psychology in Santiago Chile and an MSC in cognitive neuroscience at the University of Bologna in Italy he is based at Imperial College London at the center for psychedelic research where he led near Imaging research on the effects of the potent psychedelic DMT in the human brain and Consciousness his work focuses on the Neuroscience psychology beliefs and ethics of the Psychedelic

(02:04) experience and finally last but not least Daniel McQueen is a psychedelic specialist psychedelic therapy educator activist and author of the book psychedelic cannabis in 2012 he co-founded the center of medicinal mindfulness which is the first legal plant-based psychedelic Therapy Center in the United States Daniel specializes in using cannabis assisted psychedelic therapy and ketamine assisted psychedelic therapy as tools for transformation and healing his work with psychedelic cannabis has created a widespread movement of

(02:32) practitioners across the U.S and Canada in 2016 to test his own activist edges Daniel initiated the dmtx research and exploration program to implement a new Extended State DMT Administration protocol that was designed by Dr Andrew Gallimore and Dr Rick Strassman most recently with the team of naropa aligned psychedelic Advocates Daniel helped found the non-profit medicinal mindfulness Center for psychedelics spirituality and sustainability to focus on the use of psychedelics and ethical professional settings for healing and to

(03:00) help transform the global climate crisis so truly an All-Star team thank you the three of us for joining um so the event is going to consist of three 15-minute presentations from Andrew Chris and then Daniel and then we'll launch into a moderated q a and finally some questions from the audience and will aim to be done by 9 pm UK time so Andrew without further Ado I'll let you take it away yep yep okay okay good morning everybody um thanks for coming um Okay so I get I will talk briefly about um I guess the origins a little bit of

(03:42) um dmtx and why I'm particularly uh interested in in DMT and what I see is the um the potential use cases for DMT which might differ from Chris's but we will we will see um so first of all is that not working oh there we go obligatory plugs please do go to my website if you want to see everything that I write about and talk about and all that kind of stuff the building alienworlds.

(04:17) com uh also please do buy my new book reality switch Technologies recommended by Hamilton Morris hey who else um and or my first book as well uh Alien information Theory which is also excellent not recommended by Hamilton Morris um so DMT um for me is interesting more than interesting it is astonishingly remarkably fascinating for me and has been for uh at least a couple of decades um and is what what kind of prompted me to think about uh or to inspire dmtx originally back in sort of 2015.

(05:05) um whilst we've learned largely um owing to the work of the Imperial College team and others we know a lot more about DMT now and how it works in the brain there's still uh um uh quite a lot I would say about dmt's phenomenology that we still do not understand and that we still struggle to explain uh and I would dare say quite a lot that we that remains somewhat confounding even as a neuroscientist I find the the complexity and the content and the structure of the DMT space to be utterly confounding and I don't think it

(05:52) is straightforward to explain it um so extended sojourns within the DMT space certainly can have a lot of value there um um and of course you're all familiar I think with the the the phenomenology of the DMT space this inordinate complexity it's hyper technological space that appears to contain more spatial Dimensions than than our three plus one dimensional Universe the presence of these extremely powerful and a seemingly hyper intelligent beings um the the Lucidity the efficiency and the clarity of the space is is is quite

(06:36) remarkable um uh and of course that that old question that everyone asks when when you talk about DMT is it real sort of the ontological question I think is for me at least an extremely interesting one perhaps the central question we all want to know the answer to Is it real whatever real might mean and perhaps we can talk about that um so I think we have three basic broad interpretations of the DMT space we can we can call it some kind of hallucination that would be your Orthodox default position it is a pure

(07:13) wild fabrication of the human brain um Perhaps it is um some kind of unconscious structures bubbling up from the collective psyche um in a sort of jungian sense that has some merits as well or shifting to the much more um unorthodox slightly more far out explanations which I tend to um reach into sometimes to uh some criticism but whatever the idea that we might in fact be dealing with some kind of intelligent some kind of non-human discard alien dare we say intelligence from some other external reality these are

(08:01) unanswered questions um so the problem with DMT of course is that it is a very brief trip you you're hurtled into this extremely bizarre realm and disoriented shocked horrified appalled um you have a chance to look around wide-eyed for three minutes four minutes maybe Max at the peak um and then you are dragged back into the consensus world again so it is not a the standard smoking or bolus administration of DMT is not amenable to more detailed analysis and exploration and we say mapping which is what we're going to

(08:50) talk about today so the idea that we might be able to extend the experience by using this technology Illustrated here from anesthesiology came to me back in in in in 2015 the the idea of delivering DMT with this slowest sustained drip is certainly not my idea originally um other people have used similar Technologies but I think um what um myself and Rick Strassman were able to bring to the table was the idea of using a pharmacokinetic model using the technology from um anesthesiology what's called Target controlled intravenous infusion or TCI

(09:44) to actually maintain a stable brain concentration so you're not merely delivering a um an infusion but you're actually delivering a programmed infusion informed by a pharmacokinetic model such that you can maintain a stable brain DMT concentration over time so you can induce somebody into the DMT State and hold them there at a stable level rather than having the levels fluctuate or based upon chance or guesswork so the the target controlled intervenous infusion technology relies upon this this pharmacokinetic model and that

(10:28) takes account of the um the distribution and metabolism and excretion elimination of the drug over time so as to maintain this stable brain concentration uh and I know that Chris Timmerman and collaborators have been able to much improve upon this proof of principle model that myself and uh Rick Strassman uh developed um so so what originally prompted me to um to uh to believe that DMT was amenable to this technology was it's its unique uh pharmacological peculiarities that make it almost almost as if it was designed to be used in this way and that

(11:25) it has this very rapid but brief clinical or subjective effects and as Rick Strassman was able to demonstrate in the in the 90s that it doesn't have a behavioral tolerance so you can inject somebody with DMT and and they will have a certain intensity of effect she was able to measure and then inject them 30 minutes later they would have exactly the same intensity of effects so this is a a really important Discovery by by Rick Strassman um which meant to me having as I was reading his papers that it would make

(12:04) DMT amenable to this kind of um technology um so so I wrote to Rick um back in sometime in 2015 and asked for his blood data hoped that he would still have this Blood data which fortunately he did um and that allowed me to construct this this preliminary proof of principle model which we then published um in 2016 and which I think it's fair to say peaked a lot of people's interest in in this and it's it's kind of remarkable to me and very nice to see that um in the seven years since this paper has

(12:54) been published now almost um it's it's garnered a lot of attention and and inspired a lot of people and we're actually now it's kind of amazing we have two people here also talking who are actually um implementing this technology um some for more academic and some more academic side the established Proper University so to speak at Imperial and then perhaps closer to my original Vision the kind of the the non-academic um the more exploratory size so it's we have a nice balance there which is cool

(13:30) and no doubt there will be other groups who appear in the in the coming years uh also developing their own version of dmtx um so yeah so the idea is that now this initial roller coaster entry phase which is normally the extent of the DMT experience after the bolus injection you can push past that and enter what I would call in orientation phase where the individual is able to kind of Orient themselves within the DMT space and then it was my hope my my prediction am I well mainly My Hope um that the state would actually

(14:17) stabilize over time that the the the subject the Tripper the junior uh would actually be able to fully Orient themselves and remain stable within the state which would then open up the space for uh more detailed exploration to mapping and perhaps even to experiments and that kind of thing and I think hopefully that's something that's been borne out with with the Imperial teams experiments maybe Chris will talk about that um so what do we do with with dmtx um finally um the obviously there are the more kind of

(14:55) prosaic applications of dmtx so you know the clinical applications which aren't in which certainly aren't insignificant and could be quite important I think because you can um control the level of the experience bring people in bring them out and kind of allow um kind of multiple integration periods within the same trip you know pushing them a little bit further dealing with some kind of uh unconscious material that kind of thing then bring them out to actually discuss that so I think it has many advantages perhaps over just

(15:31) giving someone you know psilocybin or LSD or whatever and then kind of riding out over several hours the trip so but also of course for me personally I'm I'm more interested in the phenomenology of the state um and I think there are two broad questions which we we might get to talk about today obviously this is the mapping one um in in quotation marks here in um I think there are many ways we can interpret the word mapping and that's obviously something we're going to talk about today so mapping of the space and

(16:05) also the occupancy The Entity experiences these are some of the most interesting aspects who you meet in the DMT space I think many people people are particularly interested in and then then we have questions of ontological testing so is it real and I think there are two broad ways that you might look at that and one is to actually test in some way the DMT Space by the brain um and also testing the entities themselves um so testing the the space what I mean here is a breaking Convention of three years ago I spoke about this idea of whether the

(16:49) DMT world could be thought of as a sensed world or as a dreamt world so a sensed world is one that is constrained and um um constrained by sensory information um sensed worlds are not magical worlds they have certain properties so the normal waking world has certain properties uh it has has stability it has consistency it has predictability uh and um Jeff Hawkins theoretical neuroscientist spelled that wrong sorry um says predictability is the very definition of reality so we might be able to actually judge the reality the

(17:30) ontology of the DMT space not by kind of having to kind of reach out into the space and actually test the beings or whatever but actually look at how the brain is constructing it and that might tell us whether it's a world that's being actively modulated actively constrained by some kind of sensory information from outside the brain reverses a purely dreamed world or a purely hallucinated world so I think there's a lot of the the DMT space might be amenable to testing in that way without having to

(18:02) actually um reach out into the space and then of course um for many years people have thought about how we might test the entities to determine whether or not they are real so to speak and we can think of tasks or that we might give them people have thought about giving them mathematical problems finding the unique prime factors of very large numbers something that a human brain couldn't do during the trip or any time really and that these beings if they truly are at you know hyper intelligences they might be able to to achieve there aren't

(18:42) this is obviously there are issues with this kind of uh tests um but also you might ask the entities to provide information that cannot be known by the subject this kind of thing um okay so I think how I'm going to be speaking I think that's enough for me um so I will finish there and so we have a lot more to discuss then so thank you very much great thank you so much Andrew um we'll now switch over to Chris uh who is live in Oxford um and now we will go to uh Daniel McQueen for the third and final

(19:21) presentation hey everybody how's my volume I think you're I think you're you're good all right great uh well thanks for having me and uh Chris congratulations on the um on being able to do the Expeditions that's really wonderful uh it's inspiring to be part of this program and uh and being inspired by uh you both Andrew it's great seeing you here as well um I have a short presentation I'd like to share with you all so I just a name that I'm coming from a completely different orientation as a psychedelic

(19:57) guide and facilitator I'm here in Boulder Colorado and I was uh I learned about Extended State DMT through Rick Strassman who sent us who sent me the um paper that he and Andrew wrote in 2016 and then I gave a presentation on the subject just here you know the topic uh as a is something that really inspired me when we did a presentation uh called psychedelic shine here in Boulder where we had Dennis McKinnon come to speak as well so and then after that people started to ask me well what would it take to do this we should try to do this

(20:32) so I started to explore what it would actually take so I'm coming from a foundation of stepping out of the research space and into a realm of possibly designing Retreat experiences and intensive experiences for a different populations and communities so let me share my screen here and we'll just um hold on just a second we'll just hop right into it can you all see that okay here we go this looks normal okay so if you're interested in learning more about my program where the where the um where the one of the first psychedelic

(21:15) therapy centers in the United States working in a legal setting we work with cannabis as a psychedelic and ketamine and proposition 122 just passed here in Colorado and so now psilocybin and DMT are legal for personal use and we'll be stepping into regulated uh a regulated model in the next few years so we're going to start working with psilocybin in DMT in a clinical Community setting um and so I'd like to invite you to explore cannabis as a psychedelic because there's a lot of similarities

(21:46) between a strong uh cannabis experience and an extended state trip very similar to Ayahuasca and psilocybin um one of our primary partners that I'd like to recommend checking out is new nautics and Andrew I believe you're on the board of advisors now with mnotics and Egon ehrenberg's group so so this is a community to help us with the non-profit side of the word and then our program is called dreamline technology Expeditions we actually created a company to handle all the back end Logistics of this work so and Andrew

(22:23) came up with the concept of the name dmtx we worked together to play with the name what we call an extended state DNC and I know there's other names for it as well um so one of the primary differences of our program and what Chris is doing is that we work within a multi-paradigm approach where we acknowledge and and foundation and scientific inquiry but we also honor the spiritual and the existential Dimensions the transpersonal dimensions of this work we work with a lot of indigenous practitioners and other

(22:59) spiritual practitioners and then most of our team comes from a grounded clinical background so psychological safety and exploration is really important to us and then honoring the community aspects of DMT and other psychedelic medicines the creativity and Aesthetics so we do a lot of art around this work and we honor we want to bring in more music as a as a facilitator's tool to this and and I put on here this mirrors the primary missions of our particular program and that we want to work not only do we want

(23:34) to just explore this space I think Chris is taking the lead on on the logistics and the safety and all of that piece and once that's dialed in we want to put scientists through this experiment and see what that does to their psyche and their brain and maybe it can help them come up with a big solutions to world problems another idea we want to do is bring in a spiritual and religious practitioners and teachers so creating like community events around this where people can come together I have a shared Vision or intention have

(24:14) an experience a shared experience with extended state DMT and then come back and speak to it and maybe something phenomenal will come out of that um so here's our current team and I'm going to share a little bit about what we've done over the last few years but myself and Carla Dr Clemens is our co-facilitators we do have a medical team comprising of anesthesiologists and medical doctors and nurses we have a clinical team with psychologists and a lot of art therapists licensed professional counselors this is to

(24:47) ensure that people are landing well and have the support they need afterwards and then we have a technical team we're also interested in EEG work thinking that maybe we might be able to stabilize it in different ways than what Chris is saying um and we're also bringing an art an art artist a sketch artist so that they can have the experiences described to them and actually jot it down and try to create some images around this um and right now we have a cohort of of a dmtx Psychonauts that we've been

(25:21) training with over the last few years one of the things really quick set is like comparing the the typical modern DMT experience and and what he like called Visionary States um you know using ancient Judaism as a as a model was that there was a lot more um stability and meaning in the people who had um who had mindfulness practices and so we're con we're actively engaging in practicing different mindfulness techniques to help bring in stability to these these Extended State experiences um and then Andrew mentioned just

(26:01) alluded to this so I just went ahead and added this slide that we think that there might be different applications for different levels of DMT stabilization from like on the lower end from like clinical disorders and physiological disorders uh that could you know maybe DMT infusions could help then there's like these a little bit higher level of creative psycholytic levels of therapeutic or aren't enhancing then there's like the Ayahuasca levels and then a dual awareness space where you're kind of

(26:29) you're it looks it sounds like what Chris was doing was they're able to communicate through the uh Journey um and give feedback in the present moment and then what we would call like the Breakthrough state where a person was was probably non-responsive but going into a full DMT experience for an extended period of time how long someone can do this you know like is going to be an interesting question I just I know from experience that people's bladders start talking to them about an hour and a half you know

(26:58) so we're wondering you know about like just the physical um um limitations of of being in these states and then and then we think that there's probably an upper limit of just usability that there might not be like you know like just to not take too much otherwise it would just become too fragmented and disconnected and confusing um and this is what I believe you know this is now an ancient alchemical uh image which I think I've seen on Andrew used before in the past but like there's this normal reality that we're all part

(27:33) of that's three-dimensional plus time and then there it does appear to be this ability with the use of DMT as a technology to um start like our brains attempting to perceive higher dimensional states of reality that may be populated by something that's objectively um unique and different than us not interconnected with us but maybe something more than us so that's the big question that we're all curious about and then you know again we love art and uh and so we created these astronaut psychonaut badges you know that we give

(28:09) to our team members and things you know just to bring in community and play and uh creativity into these programs and then and Andrew shared an older version of this image but you know like eventually like creating some sort of DMT manual you know space technology and DMT technology is really interrelated so I keep playing with this idea of like when SpaceX goes to Mars you know what are they going to do for taking a break from that little pod you know maybe maybe Extended State DMT can go to Mars with the with the astronauts at some

(28:40) point in their future maybe 50 or 100 years who knows um and and then um let's see so what have I been doing these last few years while you all been working on your projects uh we did it we've done a series of psychonaut training uh Retreats and Expeditions using legal medicines here in Colorado and so the first one we did we had a community you know we have these communities are about you know 20 person groups we work with cannabis uh cannabis and breath work and then we actually participated in a Peyote ceremony as a community

(29:13) and the intention was to you know prepare ourselves psychically so to speak spiritually mentally physically for Extended State DMT experiences um then we did another one the next year in added ketamine experiences and I've been working with a lot Academy a bit with clients and working with it myself as well and I'm starting to see the connections with ketamine and DMT and how to navigate these really deep spaces that are very altered um in DMT X3 um we went online and worked with cannabis and breath work again because

(29:51) we were supposed to go to Costa Rica and this was right we were planning this right as covet was happening and uh and Costa Rica was supposed to be our first DMT related experiences with Ayahuasca analogs and smoke smoke DNT junga and that got canceled so we went online instead and then the mtx4 um is going to happen this year in Colorado we were set to go to Jamaica so we had set it up we were getting the medicine imported I don't want to go into the details of all of that but um you know we have a legal team and we

(30:28) were having the medicine imported for um DMT experiences in Jamaica because it was legal there that got postponed because um our offices got flooded we had this weird climate change related event here in Colorado it was like a really significant storm and it flooded our offices and it and it derailed our program for about a month and at that same time I realized that proposition 122 was going to be voted on so we paused the trip realizing that maybe we could just bring the dntx program to Colorado and so proposition 122 passed

(31:07) and we're going to do our first real you know full DMT Retreat using smoke DMT this summer here in Colorado First legal DMT retreat in the United States possibly and then we're starting to uh we're going to start a series of expedition Retreats using smoke DMT while we figure out the regulated model and bringing in synthetic DMT for the extended state DNT experience and that's gonna you know that's that'll be happen you know the next few years is is kind of the intention there um so here here what we were thinking

(31:47) this was our Costa Rica Expedition well that didn't happen but we were going to work out of these little pod rooms um that were really nice um uh different set and setting set up music and things uh and have a really nice contained space and that this is what it would um this would be the setup for something like this so what Chris has done you know something that we hope to do and to have co-guides medical direct medical doctor and a nurse a lot of equipment in the room but a lot of support as well where they and and also you know like

(32:22) initially doing it with intentionality meditation and depending on the client or the or the psycho not possibly prayer as well within beautiful meditation altar in the middle in front of the Psychonauts so they could see something pretty that was nice to them before they go into the Expedition and then the long-term goal to make it more affordable um and to to explore with group [Music] um group Expeditions is that create a larger room with up you know four Psychonauts going about the same time with kind of a station in the middle for

(33:00) the medical staff but away from the visual um view of the of the Psychonauts each one having sitter and guides and and then having like a again like a different technology in the room for monitoring safety and possibly even documenting you know with video and film and then after people would come out of the journey experiences they would go directly to assessment experts and integration therapists um and uh maybe even the sketch artist you know to share their experiences as well so um so that's about where we're at like

(33:41) we're right on the next few months we'll be doing our first DMT Journey Expeditions and and hopefully that will you know build from there to be able to offer Extended State DMT when um you know again the laws on the regulations kind of catch up to us here in Colorado so um so that's that's what I have to share for you all thank you so much Daniel um absolutely fantastic talk um so we are now um at uh it's now 8 45.

(34:19) it's only got about 15 minutes left um in uh this event um so I'll just ask one question um real quick uh and then um and then move on to questions from the audiences I'm sure there are many um so the title of this event is mapping out DMT hyperspace and I want to get your thoughts on to what extent we can actually create a real map of the DMT hyperspace and what that map actually looks like you know like in a physical map we have coordinates right latitude and longitude what were the coordinates of the DMT map look like

(34:58) okay should I begin go ahead um yeah so this is a really interesting question I think the idea of mapping um has been raised by a number of people I think there's there's a little bit of um hyperbole surrounding the idea of mapping I think a lot of people thought that the idea of mapping the DMT space is kind of ridiculous um because it is so complex uh it is so strange it is so variable um so I don't think we're anywhere close to a kind of an Ordnance survey you won't know what that is kind of maybe

(35:36) you will I don't have that in the States but anyway um so you know some kind of Ordinance survey map of the DMT space I think is out of the question but that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of mapping um so one can think about um level mapping for example so um do different levels of intensity of experience reliably take you to different types of spaces is there a um a progression I mean people talk already about you know the moving through the waiting room and the Dome and there's already been developed in a

(36:16) very informal sense uh a certain kind of mapping of the space you know what is the normal procession through the space so I think we have that that's something that we can we can anchor and work with um and and and formalize more and get a better description of the kind of experience one should expect even if there is going to be some stochasticity there and variability between individuals uh but also mapping might also mean um the the kind of the topological or geometric structure of the space I know there are a number

(36:56) of people thinking about that you know can we can we map how the the geometry uh and the topology of the space changes over time can we formalize that can we get a formal description of the different types of the kind of mathematical spatial structure of the space over time um so I think there's a lot we can we can do with mapping and then of course mapping the the entities as well you know the Flora and Fauna of the DNT space um so I think it needs to be worked out what we mean by mapping but I don't

(37:30) think we're completely lost um when it comes to the idea of mapping I think there are many things that we can um many approaches I think we're spoiled for Choice really the number of approaches we can take when it comes to formally describing a much better way than we have now Beyond kind of just kind of trip reports kind of phenomenological verbal trip reports um Daniel spoke about getting actual pictures being drawn of the space you know and so I think yeah I think there are many opportunities there

(38:05) um before we move on to either Chris or Daniel I just want to say to the people online uh please post your questions in the chat uh and I'll read them out um uh later on um Chris go ahead yeah I mean I think that the the idea of mapping is interesting and important because um after doing many of these interviews I've realized that a big part of the experience is determined by cultural factors as you would expect um and much more than people intuitively or naively think when it comes to DMT I think that there's a bit of a trick with

(38:44) the DMT space that it makes you feel that what you're seeing is very fundamental and authentic and um I think people tend to forget quite a bit that our ordinary perception is filled with traps and assumptions about what is real out there um so I think that what the first step to take to try to achieve any form of mapping is to take a rigorous approach to understand these experiences and we have Traditions that can help us in that regard so one tradition is for example the tradition of phenomenology and the

(39:24) phenomenologists uh you know the philosophical tradition of the careful and disciplined examination of experience um and we have other Traditions that are linked to contemplative practices uh I think that this is actually one of the most fruitful possible approaches that I think from phenomenology that we can take here is how do we train individuals to examine their own experiences with a critical perspective so I think what can be derived from that and what is interesting actually for us to understand you know how is this a

(40:01) method for exploration of you know what it means to be alive um is not try to understand so much the contents of the experience but the structures of the experience the forms what are the fundamental properties of how these things come about so you're much more interested in the process rather than in the confidence um and the way to do that I think is fundamentally a relational process so you need you know to have another person an experienced facilitator who have undergone you know all those tricky aspects of examining their own

(40:37) experiences with a critical eye that can help you scaffold your own process of examining your own experience so I think that that's that's kind of like the approach that I think is is more fruitful and that hopefully will get us advanced in in a way to try to understand these experiences a bit better rather than you know over fetishizing certain features of it that seems to be you know almost means down into these cultures so I think yeah I think that would be my general approach when it comes to the idea of

(41:10) mapping experience foreign thanks so much Chris uh Daniel did you have anything you wanted to add on to that yeah I'll just point uh a couple of things that are a little different I agree with everything that um Chris and Andrew were saying um we've noticed that there's like uh like levels maybe what what Andrew was saying what I would put them under would be like personal biographical material and then what we would have is like the collective unconscious or dreamlike material which you know archetypal

(41:40) uncultural then there appears to be like a like a level beyond that which might be uh considered transpersonal or you could use like there's different religious models that might come into play here and then possibly like multi what would you call them like the Multiverse or multiple realities or just this very bizarre alien landscape that's not human at all um another way I would consider mapping it is temporal like past present and future like is the content about the past is it about like what's happening

(42:12) in the world today or is it like future oriented or like Vision or prophecy or like high technology science fiction type oriented would be another way I would look at it and then also like how fast time goes is it like personal like scales that are human or is it scales that are like geological and like Universal you know like witnessing the big bang and the creation of of galaxies and things like that um and then Chris I think you're you're pointing something really important is like mapping like healthy responses like

(42:46) clinically healthy responses to these experiences versus um what we would call unhealthy or diluted responses to the this medicine because I you know we get a lot of emails from people who use a lot of DMT and some of which I would say are expressing like unhealthy um Expeditions and overuse and you know like learning how to distinguish from like a real transpersonal phenomenon and something that is diluted or fantasy um and these are things that live work in the realm of like psychology and clinical applications of assessment you

(43:20) know so those would be areas that I would I would explore fantastic thanks so much Daniel um I'll ask just one more question because I can't resist um I'm I'm curious whether you guys think that it's possible to form uh relationships with uh the entities in the DMT space in other words the more time that you spend in DMT hyperspace can you actually get to know the entities deeper and in the process can you actually gain a greater self-knowledge to the extent that those entities are just reflections of your

(43:50) own consciousness um well apparently so I I I've been in contact with quite a few people over the years who contact me and who I've people who are very experienced with DMT um particularly now people are using these uh vape pens um which is kind of a very crude dmtx and that you can actually control the level experience you know without having glass pipes and naked flames you can actually maintain yourself kind of within the space over time and I've I've had reports from people that they that

(44:30) over many months of using DMT regularly they are able to regularly make contact and meet and indeed develop a relationship with with certain entities and you know I believe them I have no reason to distrust that so it certainly seems possible it doesn't seem if you go in there with some kind of intent to to meet a certain entity and if you're familiar with that entity that it does seem possible that you can encounter that particular entity over time which is uh remarkable really because as you say you know it could be

(45:08) if you can establish some kind of two-way communication you might be able to Garner information about perhaps yourself but also perhaps their world I mean it's kind of it's uh it's almost unfathomable that we could you could develop this relationship with this this entity who you can then extract information or that's maybe the wrong word it sounds a bit closient Colonial list but um that you could actually really how develop some kind of two-way communicative relationships such as you can ask them questions about that the

(45:47) origin of their space you know we can't assume that it is just a reflection of the self these the sort of questions we can we can deal with if we can do that so I think that's really important actually aspect of this it's not just about mapping the space and kind of looking around uh in a but actually working more like an anthropologist um than just an Explorer and that you are actually getting to know the beings within the space and learning about their culture so to speak their hyper-dimensional culture and and where

(46:22) they came from and what they are and what they do and what it means you know that to me is a really important uh approach um it seems a much more natural approach for humans who are very communicative you know social beings we like to talk to other beings to get information so I think that's a really important approach that we can take with with DMT I think yeah I mean just I think uh just to compliment that I I think that if one looks into actually the anthropological literature of uh Amazonian cultures um whether whether it's mestizo or

(47:03) indigenous ones uh you'll find that you know Ayahuasca users especially shamans to develop stable relationships with you know the spirits that they encounter and the plants that they are attached to um and how there's a there's there's a clear relationship that is cultivated in that for the skillful use of certain medicines attached to those plants so I think I mean to your question Kenneth I think there is whether or not it's possible I think the anthropological literature suggests that it happens

(47:43) what I think is crucially different in that context from the psychonatic Western context is that the cosmology is kind of um supports that sort of cultivation of those relationships in these Amazonian cultures we've given extended forms of DMT to individuals on repeated occasions up to four occasions and we don't see the stability of these entities or these beings and again I'm not making any assumption here about the ontology of these beings and you're seeing their experiences um so we don't see a stability of them

(48:20) you know recurring the same entity or the same feature and it could be that with the right cultural priming uh for example a strong Cosmo Vision about you know entity X Y or Z then there could be some form of stabilization of that entity when the experiences are happening and that these relationships can be cultivated and that these relationships can be meaningful for the individual so I think it's a very context dependent thing whether or not these things are possible yeah Daniel did you have anything you wanted

(49:00) to add on to that yeah I've heard a story similar to what Chris is saying even at um Ayahuasca practitioner of having even a second life and a second family you know and a lot of people report back and have feeling um connected to their ancestors you know so these you know some of these entities might not be completely random but somehow connected to us if you believe in um that particular worldview and I I have had multiple experiences with the same entities that have come to talk to me and they speak in color and flashing

(49:34) lights and point the way you know somebody mentioned in the thing that their their guides they show us how to step into these inner spaces and I would love to have like a longer conversation in just a few minutes with that and sometimes the symbols that they share some of the visual symbols are Clues to personal processes and that I you know I've worked with and don't show up um for years and years later I don't understand why that particular symbol showed up for years I think of the dmtx ideas like a us like

(50:06) a foreign student Exchange program you're able to immerse yourself in another culture and hopefully it'll be stabilized long enough that you just don't like the channel just doesn't change over and over again and that you're able to have a ongoing relationship I think that's actually really possible in these spaces amazing thanks so much um so we'll take just two questions from online uh and then two questions from the in-person audience we are already a bit over time so Chris if you do need to

(50:36) head out um let me know um but hopefully what we can take about like maybe 15 minutes of questions from the audience um so the first one is from Adam he says the BMT experience feels like it comes from outside itself uh what is the reason for this questions so uh there's there could be many reasons why why it feels outside the cell and I think if you want to be very cynical about it you can give a very reductionistic explanation so uh so we see that there's a strong dysregulation of normal brain activity

(51:13) uh in the frontal cortex and we know that certain metacognitive capacities so the ability to be aware of our own thoughts or what is real and not real can be compromised if you will under a certain extent so I think from a reductionistic approach I'm not saying I have that approach I'm just saying that you know it's a possibility it could be that it feels real because her ability to determine what is real and not real is fairly compromised and uh there's not just this you know biological explanation there's also the

(51:51) fundamental logical explanation a lot of people have strong insights in these experiences which are not necessarily real and that upon further examination in fact do seem that you know they don't make much sense so it could be that the alternative explanation you know I'll leave it for for maybe others to to contribute to it okay so I guess you mean me [Laughter] um yeah so okay um so I think sure this reality testing is very is very difficult and and complicated and certainly I mean even in the dream state

(52:35) um this this frontal deactivation uh is present so you don't normally recognize that the dream state is a dream unless you are Lucid dreamer where you can kind of reactivate and you see this kind of thing also in schizophrenia where people hear voices and there is there seems to be an issue with the attribution of that voice that you would normally attribute to yourself because of this disconnectivity between the frontal and other parts of the brain um there is obviously you know the extremely alien nature of the experience the intensity

(53:10) the clarity all of these things the fact that it does seem to bear no relationship whatsoever to normal waking reality all of it makes it seem extremely alien which can contribute to that maybe and whether that means it truly is alien is a different matter um one thing I would say is that what you see with with dreamers is when when dreamers wake up they accept fully that it was just a dream and like likewise when schizophrenics are treated um when they they kind of they recover from their delusive delusionary thought

(53:50) process they again accept that the voice in their head was just them you know it wasn't real um what's striking I think about DMT is that even after the trip is over and you come down from the experience people are still utterly 100 convinced even though they know they took a drug they took a powerful psychedelic drug they they still remain completely convinced that this was not just so they have all of their reality testing faculties reconstructed and yet they will still tell you there's no way that this was

(54:28) just a hallucination or just a product of their own mind what do you make of that um I don't know but I I think it's quite interesting um that people are unwilling to accept oh that it was just uh that it was just some kind of dream process or just some kind of hallucination so I think there is there is there are still kind of pockets of the um the inexplicable that remain uh even uh after accounting for all of these aberrant and disorganized and all that uh neurological processes yeah I just I just want to come back sorry for urugues

(55:10) we've been like I actually wanted to copy what you said Andrew with the fact that um actually it's quite interesting because if you look at the at the model supported by the evidence around psychedelic action and we see that with DMT as well it seems that there is a part that has to do with a deconstruction of all these crystallized models of the world that we have constructed throughout our adulthood and uh and I actually think that there is room to put forward the hypothesis that there is some form of fundamental state of

(55:46) being that is somehow activated in these experiences very intense secondary experiences and certainly DMT experiences and um my my kind of like initial guess around why it feels so real is because it feels authentic the the experience has a form of Elementary feeling to it that is also geysed up many times in deceiving ways so that that would be my kind of like mixed also uh approach to that answer I guess maybe just add a few more pieces you know I've thought about this a lot and I think the brain is trying to perceive

(56:33) something more than four-dimensional you know and it can get a little unruly but I believe it's pointing to um this awareness of perception of more than four dimensions and I think by definition that makes it feel more real than real because what we experience as real is you know four-dimensional space and so I think there's you know like the brain is trying to wrap its head around something that it's hard for us to comprehend in a normal State um the other thing what Chris was pointing to it's like it feels familiar

(57:03) like uh there's something about it that it's more of a remembering than it is like an uncovering something new sometimes for a lot of people and so it's like returning to a place that you were before or you know or where you're gonna go when you die or where we were before we were born you know I'm not quite sure what that is but uh but if feels familiar and it's more of a remembering and I think that's what makes it feel more real and then you know the other thing that you know that

(57:31) the the caution of the more real than real doesn't mean it's true and I think you know Chris is pointing to that too in that like you know there are people who are psychotic that truly believe their their worldview is is very real um but it doesn't connect with consensus reality or other people's ability to understand it and Rick Strassman talked to me about this like when you experience a DNT State and you might be narcissistic and you believe you're the you know you're the peak of the world

(58:01) and the best that all things you know um that there's a lot of damage that can be done of somebody who really believes in their delusion you know so so it's it's I think it's really important to work with healthy people and also to check them when they come back and and you know like do the reality testing and and like and push their edges a little bit with what um Andrew was saying about like they really believe it happened you know and I think that's I don't we don't want to Discount that but we want to

(58:29) check it you know as much as we can so so those are my thoughts on that one for sure thanks so much all great great answers um this next one is a pretty quick one uh are there any plans to contact high-level Buddhist Meditation Masters that can be injected with DMT in other words enrolling meditate meditation Masters in dmtx you can speak to that briefly but you know we do want to work with you know not just Buddhist practitioners but other religious practitioners as well and that will be something that we'll

(59:02) step into as we get further along into the program but you know naropa University is here and there's a lot of Buddhist practitioners in this area but that would be the idea is Multicultural um spiritual practitioners so people who have like contemplative practices from multiple Traditions would be what I would like to do with it yeah on our end we're we're also working in a similar sort of Direction um precisely because again uh you know very experienced meditators have the capacity to talk about their experience

(59:34) at length and have a capacity to maintain a form of awareness in these extreme states they have a training of sorts uh which I guess you could argue that Psychonauts many times may have the only difference is that we know we don't have uh schools of practices of thousands of years of Psychonauts so it's it's I think it's very interesting to to go to very experienced police practitioners and I am particularly interested not just in DMT for that but also fighting the foxy DMT for that for that purpose because of

(1:00:07) the similarities between these non-dual states and these experiences of unity and nothingness that 5meo induces great um we'll now take a couple of questions from the audience unless Andrew did you want to chime in on that last question or no okay um so uh if you're if you have a question from the in-person audience could you just please come up to the laptop um so that everybody online can hear your questions so Chris if you want to just pick a couple people raising their hands over there sure I also have to leave but um okay

(1:00:42) we'll just we'll just do one question then one question no no you guys should keep uh don't uh don't mind me uh there you go um so you mentioned five new thoughts too and I was just really curious because obviously it's something that you can help is that something so kind of like how Angie mentioned where you could maybe like Infuse it for a longer period of time is that any research that you've seen anyone do maybe at the like Imperial Maybe a fiber meal X yeah no we're we're not uh I think it's it's

(1:01:19) too early to to think of something like that I mean I don't know it could be done it's just I think the safety profile the 5mm DMT is still not uh as well researched as the one from BMT what do you think would happen um because obviously the effects if you had to predict what would happen to someone well it depends on the dose it depends on on the the level of of that extreme but I would be kind of afraid to extend it too much but I think we do have you know methods of administration that could maybe to a

(1:01:51) certain extent uh prolongation which is international Administration for example or intramuscular Administration uh any control contexts it appears to be fairly safe although there is some data suggesting that you know these five mere experiences when they're strong they can be you know they can be challenging so so I think maybe but you know further along the line that's very cool thank you okay Mike came up oh so hopefully they have that yes yeah that all came through loud and clear uh online um so I know Chris has got to go uh and

(1:02:32) I'm sure Andrew's itching to get some sleep um so I think we'll end the event here even though I have probably 10 hours worth of questions that I could ask the three of you um so thank you so much again uh for joining us for this event I'd love to do another Edition where we can dive deeper into into coming up with these Maps um thank you so so much guys thank you very much thank you thanks everybody thank you

Mapping Out The DMT Hyperspace - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyXp7thv00

Transcript:

(00:00) okay great um let's get started um thank you so much everybody for joining us uh both in person at Oxford uh and online here on Zoom um I have a bit of a shoddy internet connection so I apologize if it goes awry we've got a truly International crowd today so uh Chris Timmerman is uh joining the audience in person at Oxford uh Daniel McQueen is calling in from Colorado uh and Andrew Gallimore is calling in from Okinawa Japan uh where it is currently 4 30 a.

(00:35) m sorry from Tokyo from Tokyo um where it's for 4 30 in the morning so Andrew you're a real trooper um thank you so much for joining us um so this is uh mapping out DMT hyperspace um we are very lucky to be joined today by three incredible speakers uh Andrew galmore Chris Timberman and Daniel McQueen will be speaking in that order uh let me just introduce the three speakers very briefly uh Dr Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist pharmacologist chemiston writer who's been interested in the

(01:07) neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is an author of a number of Articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug DMT and its effects on the brain and Consciousness we recently collaborated with DNT Pioneer Dr Rick Strassman author of DMT The Spirit Molecule to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended Journeys in DMT space also known as dmtx his current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gaining access to extra-dimensional realities

(01:36) and how this can be understood in terms of the Neuroscience of information he currently lives and works in Japan next Chris Timmerman obtained a BSC in Psychology in Santiago Chile and an MSC in cognitive neuroscience at the University of Bologna in Italy he is based at Imperial College London at the center for psychedelic research where he led near Imaging research on the effects of the potent psychedelic DMT in the human brain and Consciousness his work focuses on the Neuroscience psychology beliefs and ethics of the Psychedelic

(02:04) experience and finally last but not least Daniel McQueen is a psychedelic specialist psychedelic therapy educator activist and author of the book psychedelic cannabis in 2012 he co-founded the center of medicinal mindfulness which is the first legal plant-based psychedelic Therapy Center in the United States Daniel specializes in using cannabis assisted psychedelic therapy and ketamine assisted psychedelic therapy as tools for transformation and healing his work with psychedelic cannabis has created a widespread movement of

(02:32) practitioners across the U.S and Canada in 2016 to test his own activist edges Daniel initiated the dmtx research and exploration program to implement a new Extended State DMT Administration protocol that was designed by Dr Andrew Gallimore and Dr Rick Strassman most recently with the team of naropa aligned psychedelic Advocates Daniel helped found the non-profit medicinal mindfulness Center for psychedelics spirituality and sustainability to focus on the use of psychedelics and ethical professional settings for healing and to

(03:00) help transform the global climate crisis so truly an All-Star team thank you the three of us for joining um so the event is going to consist of three 15-minute presentations from Andrew Chris and then Daniel and then we'll launch into a moderated q a and finally some questions from the audience and will aim to be done by 9 pm UK time so Andrew without further Ado I'll let you take it away yep yep okay okay good morning everybody um thanks for coming um Okay so I get I will talk briefly about um I guess the origins a little bit of

(03:42) um dmtx and why I'm particularly uh interested in in DMT and what I see is the um the potential use cases for DMT which might differ from Chris's but we will we will see um so first of all is that not working oh there we go obligatory plugs please do go to my website if you want to see everything that I write about and talk about and all that kind of stuff the building alienworlds.

(04:17) com uh also please do buy my new book reality switch Technologies recommended by Hamilton Morris hey who else um and or my first book as well uh Alien information Theory which is also excellent not recommended by Hamilton Morris um so DMT um for me is interesting more than interesting it is astonishingly remarkably fascinating for me and has been for uh at least a couple of decades um and is what what kind of prompted me to think about uh or to inspire dmtx originally back in sort of 2015.

(05:05) um whilst we've learned largely um owing to the work of the Imperial College team and others we know a lot more about DMT now and how it works in the brain there's still uh um uh quite a lot I would say about dmt's phenomenology that we still do not understand and that we still struggle to explain uh and I would dare say quite a lot that we that remains somewhat confounding even as a neuroscientist I find the the complexity and the content and the structure of the DMT space to be utterly confounding and I don't think it

(05:52) is straightforward to explain it um so extended sojourns within the DMT space certainly can have a lot of value there um um and of course you're all familiar I think with the the the phenomenology of the DMT space this inordinate complexity it's hyper technological space that appears to contain more spatial Dimensions than than our three plus one dimensional Universe the presence of these extremely powerful and a seemingly hyper intelligent beings um the the Lucidity the efficiency and the clarity of the space is is is quite

(06:36) remarkable um uh and of course that that old question that everyone asks when when you talk about DMT is it real sort of the ontological question I think is for me at least an extremely interesting one perhaps the central question we all want to know the answer to Is it real whatever real might mean and perhaps we can talk about that um so I think we have three basic broad interpretations of the DMT space we can we can call it some kind of hallucination that would be your Orthodox default position it is a pure

(07:13) wild fabrication of the human brain um Perhaps it is um some kind of unconscious structures bubbling up from the collective psyche um in a sort of jungian sense that has some merits as well or shifting to the much more um unorthodox slightly more far out explanations which I tend to um reach into sometimes to uh some criticism but whatever the idea that we might in fact be dealing with some kind of intelligent some kind of non-human discard alien dare we say intelligence from some other external reality these are

(08:01) unanswered questions um so the problem with DMT of course is that it is a very brief trip you you're hurtled into this extremely bizarre realm and disoriented shocked horrified appalled um you have a chance to look around wide-eyed for three minutes four minutes maybe Max at the peak um and then you are dragged back into the consensus world again so it is not a the standard smoking or bolus administration of DMT is not amenable to more detailed analysis and exploration and we say mapping which is what we're going to

(08:50) talk about today so the idea that we might be able to extend the experience by using this technology Illustrated here from anesthesiology came to me back in in in in 2015 the the idea of delivering DMT with this slowest sustained drip is certainly not my idea originally um other people have used similar Technologies but I think um what um myself and Rick Strassman were able to bring to the table was the idea of using a pharmacokinetic model using the technology from um anesthesiology what's called Target controlled intravenous infusion or TCI

(09:44) to actually maintain a stable brain concentration so you're not merely delivering a um an infusion but you're actually delivering a programmed infusion informed by a pharmacokinetic model such that you can maintain a stable brain DMT concentration over time so you can induce somebody into the DMT State and hold them there at a stable level rather than having the levels fluctuate or based upon chance or guesswork so the the target controlled intervenous infusion technology relies upon this this pharmacokinetic model and that

(10:28) takes account of the um the distribution and metabolism and excretion elimination of the drug over time so as to maintain this stable brain concentration uh and I know that Chris Timmerman and collaborators have been able to much improve upon this proof of principle model that myself and uh Rick Strassman uh developed um so so what originally prompted me to um to uh to believe that DMT was amenable to this technology was it's its unique uh pharmacological peculiarities that make it almost almost as if it was designed to be used in this way and that

(11:25) it has this very rapid but brief clinical or subjective effects and as Rick Strassman was able to demonstrate in the in the 90s that it doesn't have a behavioral tolerance so you can inject somebody with DMT and and they will have a certain intensity of effect she was able to measure and then inject them 30 minutes later they would have exactly the same intensity of effects so this is a a really important Discovery by by Rick Strassman um which meant to me having as I was reading his papers that it would make

(12:04) DMT amenable to this kind of um technology um so so I wrote to Rick um back in sometime in 2015 and asked for his blood data hoped that he would still have this Blood data which fortunately he did um and that allowed me to construct this this preliminary proof of principle model which we then published um in 2016 and which I think it's fair to say peaked a lot of people's interest in in this and it's it's kind of remarkable to me and very nice to see that um in the seven years since this paper has

(12:54) been published now almost um it's it's garnered a lot of attention and and inspired a lot of people and we're actually now it's kind of amazing we have two people here also talking who are actually um implementing this technology um some for more academic and some more academic side the established Proper University so to speak at Imperial and then perhaps closer to my original Vision the kind of the the non-academic um the more exploratory size so it's we have a nice balance there which is cool

(13:30) and no doubt there will be other groups who appear in the in the coming years uh also developing their own version of dmtx um so yeah so the idea is that now this initial roller coaster entry phase which is normally the extent of the DMT experience after the bolus injection you can push past that and enter what I would call in orientation phase where the individual is able to kind of Orient themselves within the DMT space and then it was my hope my my prediction am I well mainly My Hope um that the state would actually

(14:17) stabilize over time that the the the subject the Tripper the junior uh would actually be able to fully Orient themselves and remain stable within the state which would then open up the space for uh more detailed exploration to mapping and perhaps even to experiments and that kind of thing and I think hopefully that's something that's been borne out with with the Imperial teams experiments maybe Chris will talk about that um so what do we do with with dmtx um finally um the obviously there are the more kind of

(14:55) prosaic applications of dmtx so you know the clinical applications which aren't in which certainly aren't insignificant and could be quite important I think because you can um control the level of the experience bring people in bring them out and kind of allow um kind of multiple integration periods within the same trip you know pushing them a little bit further dealing with some kind of uh unconscious material that kind of thing then bring them out to actually discuss that so I think it has many advantages perhaps over just

(15:31) giving someone you know psilocybin or LSD or whatever and then kind of riding out over several hours the trip so but also of course for me personally I'm I'm more interested in the phenomenology of the state um and I think there are two broad questions which we we might get to talk about today obviously this is the mapping one um in in quotation marks here in um I think there are many ways we can interpret the word mapping and that's obviously something we're going to talk about today so mapping of the space and

(16:05) also the occupancy The Entity experiences these are some of the most interesting aspects who you meet in the DMT space I think many people people are particularly interested in and then then we have questions of ontological testing so is it real and I think there are two broad ways that you might look at that and one is to actually test in some way the DMT Space by the brain um and also testing the entities themselves um so testing the the space what I mean here is a breaking Convention of three years ago I spoke about this idea of whether the

(16:49) DMT world could be thought of as a sensed world or as a dreamt world so a sensed world is one that is constrained and um um constrained by sensory information um sensed worlds are not magical worlds they have certain properties so the normal waking world has certain properties uh it has has stability it has consistency it has predictability uh and um Jeff Hawkins theoretical neuroscientist spelled that wrong sorry um says predictability is the very definition of reality so we might be able to actually judge the reality the

(17:30) ontology of the DMT space not by kind of having to kind of reach out into the space and actually test the beings or whatever but actually look at how the brain is constructing it and that might tell us whether it's a world that's being actively modulated actively constrained by some kind of sensory information from outside the brain reverses a purely dreamed world or a purely hallucinated world so I think there's a lot of the the DMT space might be amenable to testing in that way without having to

(18:02) actually um reach out into the space and then of course um for many years people have thought about how we might test the entities to determine whether or not they are real so to speak and we can think of tasks or that we might give them people have thought about giving them mathematical problems finding the unique prime factors of very large numbers something that a human brain couldn't do during the trip or any time really and that these beings if they truly are at you know hyper intelligences they might be able to to achieve there aren't

(18:42) this is obviously there are issues with this kind of uh tests um but also you might ask the entities to provide information that cannot be known by the subject this kind of thing um okay so I think how I'm going to be speaking I think that's enough for me um so I will finish there and so we have a lot more to discuss then so thank you very much great thank you so much Andrew um we'll now switch over to Chris uh who is live in Oxford um and now we will go to uh Daniel McQueen for the third and final

(19:21) presentation hey everybody how's my volume I think you're I think you're you're good all right great uh well thanks for having me and uh Chris congratulations on the um on being able to do the Expeditions that's really wonderful uh it's inspiring to be part of this program and uh and being inspired by uh you both Andrew it's great seeing you here as well um I have a short presentation I'd like to share with you all so I just a name that I'm coming from a completely different orientation as a psychedelic

(19:57) guide and facilitator I'm here in Boulder Colorado and I was uh I learned about Extended State DMT through Rick Strassman who sent us who sent me the um paper that he and Andrew wrote in 2016 and then I gave a presentation on the subject just here you know the topic uh as a is something that really inspired me when we did a presentation uh called psychedelic shine here in Boulder where we had Dennis McKinnon come to speak as well so and then after that people started to ask me well what would it take to do this we should try to do this

(20:32) so I started to explore what it would actually take so I'm coming from a foundation of stepping out of the research space and into a realm of possibly designing Retreat experiences and intensive experiences for a different populations and communities so let me share my screen here and we'll just um hold on just a second we'll just hop right into it can you all see that okay here we go this looks normal okay so if you're interested in learning more about my program where the where the um where the one of the first psychedelic

(21:15) therapy centers in the United States working in a legal setting we work with cannabis as a psychedelic and ketamine and proposition 122 just passed here in Colorado and so now psilocybin and DMT are legal for personal use and we'll be stepping into regulated uh a regulated model in the next few years so we're going to start working with psilocybin in DMT in a clinical Community setting um and so I'd like to invite you to explore cannabis as a psychedelic because there's a lot of similarities

(21:46) between a strong uh cannabis experience and an extended state trip very similar to Ayahuasca and psilocybin um one of our primary partners that I'd like to recommend checking out is new nautics and Andrew I believe you're on the board of advisors now with mnotics and Egon ehrenberg's group so so this is a community to help us with the non-profit side of the word and then our program is called dreamline technology Expeditions we actually created a company to handle all the back end Logistics of this work so and Andrew

(22:23) came up with the concept of the name dmtx we worked together to play with the name what we call an extended state DNC and I know there's other names for it as well um so one of the primary differences of our program and what Chris is doing is that we work within a multi-paradigm approach where we acknowledge and and foundation and scientific inquiry but we also honor the spiritual and the existential Dimensions the transpersonal dimensions of this work we work with a lot of indigenous practitioners and other

(22:59) spiritual practitioners and then most of our team comes from a grounded clinical background so psychological safety and exploration is really important to us and then honoring the community aspects of DMT and other psychedelic medicines the creativity and Aesthetics so we do a lot of art around this work and we honor we want to bring in more music as a as a facilitator's tool to this and and I put on here this mirrors the primary missions of our particular program and that we want to work not only do we want

(23:34) to just explore this space I think Chris is taking the lead on on the logistics and the safety and all of that piece and once that's dialed in we want to put scientists through this experiment and see what that does to their psyche and their brain and maybe it can help them come up with a big solutions to world problems another idea we want to do is bring in a spiritual and religious practitioners and teachers so creating like community events around this where people can come together I have a shared Vision or intention have

(24:14) an experience a shared experience with extended state DMT and then come back and speak to it and maybe something phenomenal will come out of that um so here's our current team and I'm going to share a little bit about what we've done over the last few years but myself and Carla Dr Clemens is our co-facilitators we do have a medical team comprising of anesthesiologists and medical doctors and nurses we have a clinical team with psychologists and a lot of art therapists licensed professional counselors this is to

(24:47) ensure that people are landing well and have the support they need afterwards and then we have a technical team we're also interested in EEG work thinking that maybe we might be able to stabilize it in different ways than what Chris is saying um and we're also bringing an art an art artist a sketch artist so that they can have the experiences described to them and actually jot it down and try to create some images around this um and right now we have a cohort of of a dmtx Psychonauts that we've been

(25:21) training with over the last few years one of the things really quick set is like comparing the the typical modern DMT experience and and what he like called Visionary States um you know using ancient Judaism as a as a model was that there was a lot more um stability and meaning in the people who had um who had mindfulness practices and so we're con we're actively engaging in practicing different mindfulness techniques to help bring in stability to these these Extended State experiences um and then Andrew mentioned just

(26:01) alluded to this so I just went ahead and added this slide that we think that there might be different applications for different levels of DMT stabilization from like on the lower end from like clinical disorders and physiological disorders uh that could you know maybe DMT infusions could help then there's like these a little bit higher level of creative psycholytic levels of therapeutic or aren't enhancing then there's like the Ayahuasca levels and then a dual awareness space where you're kind of

(26:29) you're it looks it sounds like what Chris was doing was they're able to communicate through the uh Journey um and give feedback in the present moment and then what we would call like the Breakthrough state where a person was was probably non-responsive but going into a full DMT experience for an extended period of time how long someone can do this you know like is going to be an interesting question I just I know from experience that people's bladders start talking to them about an hour and a half you know

(26:58) so we're wondering you know about like just the physical um um limitations of of being in these states and then and then we think that there's probably an upper limit of just usability that there might not be like you know like just to not take too much otherwise it would just become too fragmented and disconnected and confusing um and this is what I believe you know this is now an ancient alchemical uh image which I think I've seen on Andrew used before in the past but like there's this normal reality that we're all part

(27:33) of that's three-dimensional plus time and then there it does appear to be this ability with the use of DMT as a technology to um start like our brains attempting to perceive higher dimensional states of reality that may be populated by something that's objectively um unique and different than us not interconnected with us but maybe something more than us so that's the big question that we're all curious about and then you know again we love art and uh and so we created these astronaut psychonaut badges you know that we give

(28:09) to our team members and things you know just to bring in community and play and uh creativity into these programs and then and Andrew shared an older version of this image but you know like eventually like creating some sort of DMT manual you know space technology and DMT technology is really interrelated so I keep playing with this idea of like when SpaceX goes to Mars you know what are they going to do for taking a break from that little pod you know maybe maybe Extended State DMT can go to Mars with the with the astronauts at some

(28:40) point in their future maybe 50 or 100 years who knows um and and then um let's see so what have I been doing these last few years while you all been working on your projects uh we did it we've done a series of psychonaut training uh Retreats and Expeditions using legal medicines here in Colorado and so the first one we did we had a community you know we have these communities are about you know 20 person groups we work with cannabis uh cannabis and breath work and then we actually participated in a Peyote ceremony as a community

(29:13) and the intention was to you know prepare ourselves psychically so to speak spiritually mentally physically for Extended State DMT experiences um then we did another one the next year in added ketamine experiences and I've been working with a lot Academy a bit with clients and working with it myself as well and I'm starting to see the connections with ketamine and DMT and how to navigate these really deep spaces that are very altered um in DMT X3 um we went online and worked with cannabis and breath work again because

(29:51) we were supposed to go to Costa Rica and this was right we were planning this right as covet was happening and uh and Costa Rica was supposed to be our first DMT related experiences with Ayahuasca analogs and smoke smoke DNT junga and that got canceled so we went online instead and then the mtx4 um is going to happen this year in Colorado we were set to go to Jamaica so we had set it up we were getting the medicine imported I don't want to go into the details of all of that but um you know we have a legal team and we

(30:28) were having the medicine imported for um DMT experiences in Jamaica because it was legal there that got postponed because um our offices got flooded we had this weird climate change related event here in Colorado it was like a really significant storm and it flooded our offices and it and it derailed our program for about a month and at that same time I realized that proposition 122 was going to be voted on so we paused the trip realizing that maybe we could just bring the dntx program to Colorado and so proposition 122 passed

(31:07) and we're going to do our first real you know full DMT Retreat using smoke DMT this summer here in Colorado First legal DMT retreat in the United States possibly and then we're starting to uh we're going to start a series of expedition Retreats using smoke DMT while we figure out the regulated model and bringing in synthetic DMT for the extended state DNT experience and that's gonna you know that's that'll be happen you know the next few years is is kind of the intention there um so here here what we were thinking

(31:47) this was our Costa Rica Expedition well that didn't happen but we were going to work out of these little pod rooms um that were really nice um uh different set and setting set up music and things uh and have a really nice contained space and that this is what it would um this would be the setup for something like this so what Chris has done you know something that we hope to do and to have co-guides medical direct medical doctor and a nurse a lot of equipment in the room but a lot of support as well where they and and also you know like

(32:22) initially doing it with intentionality meditation and depending on the client or the or the psycho not possibly prayer as well within beautiful meditation altar in the middle in front of the Psychonauts so they could see something pretty that was nice to them before they go into the Expedition and then the long-term goal to make it more affordable um and to to explore with group [Music] um group Expeditions is that create a larger room with up you know four Psychonauts going about the same time with kind of a station in the middle for

(33:00) the medical staff but away from the visual um view of the of the Psychonauts each one having sitter and guides and and then having like a again like a different technology in the room for monitoring safety and possibly even documenting you know with video and film and then after people would come out of the journey experiences they would go directly to assessment experts and integration therapists um and uh maybe even the sketch artist you know to share their experiences as well so um so that's about where we're at like

(33:41) we're right on the next few months we'll be doing our first DMT Journey Expeditions and and hopefully that will you know build from there to be able to offer Extended State DMT when um you know again the laws on the regulations kind of catch up to us here in Colorado so um so that's that's what I have to share for you all thank you so much Daniel um absolutely fantastic talk um so we are now um at uh it's now 8 45.

(34:19) it's only got about 15 minutes left um in uh this event um so I'll just ask one question um real quick uh and then um and then move on to questions from the audiences I'm sure there are many um so the title of this event is mapping out DMT hyperspace and I want to get your thoughts on to what extent we can actually create a real map of the DMT hyperspace and what that map actually looks like you know like in a physical map we have coordinates right latitude and longitude what were the coordinates of the DMT map look like

(34:58) okay should I begin go ahead um yeah so this is a really interesting question I think the idea of mapping um has been raised by a number of people I think there's there's a little bit of um hyperbole surrounding the idea of mapping I think a lot of people thought that the idea of mapping the DMT space is kind of ridiculous um because it is so complex uh it is so strange it is so variable um so I don't think we're anywhere close to a kind of an Ordnance survey you won't know what that is kind of maybe

(35:36) you will I don't have that in the States but anyway um so you know some kind of Ordinance survey map of the DMT space I think is out of the question but that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of mapping um so one can think about um level mapping for example so um do different levels of intensity of experience reliably take you to different types of spaces is there a um a progression I mean people talk already about you know the moving through the waiting room and the Dome and there's already been developed in a

(36:16) very informal sense uh a certain kind of mapping of the space you know what is the normal procession through the space so I think we have that that's something that we can we can anchor and work with um and and and formalize more and get a better description of the kind of experience one should expect even if there is going to be some stochasticity there and variability between individuals uh but also mapping might also mean um the the kind of the topological or geometric structure of the space I know there are a number

(36:56) of people thinking about that you know can we can we map how the the geometry uh and the topology of the space changes over time can we formalize that can we get a formal description of the different types of the kind of mathematical spatial structure of the space over time um so I think there's a lot we can we can do with mapping and then of course mapping the the entities as well you know the Flora and Fauna of the DNT space um so I think it needs to be worked out what we mean by mapping but I don't

(37:30) think we're completely lost um when it comes to the idea of mapping I think there are many things that we can um many approaches I think we're spoiled for Choice really the number of approaches we can take when it comes to formally describing a much better way than we have now Beyond kind of just kind of trip reports kind of phenomenological verbal trip reports um Daniel spoke about getting actual pictures being drawn of the space you know and so I think yeah I think there are many opportunities there

(38:05) um before we move on to either Chris or Daniel I just want to say to the people online uh please post your questions in the chat uh and I'll read them out um uh later on um Chris go ahead yeah I mean I think that the the idea of mapping is interesting and important because um after doing many of these interviews I've realized that a big part of the experience is determined by cultural factors as you would expect um and much more than people intuitively or naively think when it comes to DMT I think that there's a bit of a trick with

(38:44) the DMT space that it makes you feel that what you're seeing is very fundamental and authentic and um I think people tend to forget quite a bit that our ordinary perception is filled with traps and assumptions about what is real out there um so I think that what the first step to take to try to achieve any form of mapping is to take a rigorous approach to understand these experiences and we have Traditions that can help us in that regard so one tradition is for example the tradition of phenomenology and the

(39:24) phenomenologists uh you know the philosophical tradition of the careful and disciplined examination of experience um and we have other Traditions that are linked to contemplative practices uh I think that this is actually one of the most fruitful possible approaches that I think from phenomenology that we can take here is how do we train individuals to examine their own experiences with a critical perspective so I think what can be derived from that and what is interesting actually for us to understand you know how is this a

(40:01) method for exploration of you know what it means to be alive um is not try to understand so much the contents of the experience but the structures of the experience the forms what are the fundamental properties of how these things come about so you're much more interested in the process rather than in the confidence um and the way to do that I think is fundamentally a relational process so you need you know to have another person an experienced facilitator who have undergone you know all those tricky aspects of examining their own

(40:37) experiences with a critical eye that can help you scaffold your own process of examining your own experience so I think that that's that's kind of like the approach that I think is is more fruitful and that hopefully will get us advanced in in a way to try to understand these experiences a bit better rather than you know over fetishizing certain features of it that seems to be you know almost means down into these cultures so I think yeah I think that would be my general approach when it comes to the idea of

(41:10) mapping experience foreign thanks so much Chris uh Daniel did you have anything you wanted to add on to that yeah I'll just point uh a couple of things that are a little different I agree with everything that um Chris and Andrew were saying um we've noticed that there's like uh like levels maybe what what Andrew was saying what I would put them under would be like personal biographical material and then what we would have is like the collective unconscious or dreamlike material which you know archetypal

(41:40) uncultural then there appears to be like a like a level beyond that which might be uh considered transpersonal or you could use like there's different religious models that might come into play here and then possibly like multi what would you call them like the Multiverse or multiple realities or just this very bizarre alien landscape that's not human at all um another way I would consider mapping it is temporal like past present and future like is the content about the past is it about like what's happening

(42:12) in the world today or is it like future oriented or like Vision or prophecy or like high technology science fiction type oriented would be another way I would look at it and then also like how fast time goes is it like personal like scales that are human or is it scales that are like geological and like Universal you know like witnessing the big bang and the creation of of galaxies and things like that um and then Chris I think you're you're pointing something really important is like mapping like healthy responses like

(42:46) clinically healthy responses to these experiences versus um what we would call unhealthy or diluted responses to the this medicine because I you know we get a lot of emails from people who use a lot of DMT and some of which I would say are expressing like unhealthy um Expeditions and overuse and you know like learning how to distinguish from like a real transpersonal phenomenon and something that is diluted or fantasy um and these are things that live work in the realm of like psychology and clinical applications of assessment you

(43:20) know so those would be areas that I would I would explore fantastic thanks so much Daniel um I'll ask just one more question because I can't resist um I'm I'm curious whether you guys think that it's possible to form uh relationships with uh the entities in the DMT space in other words the more time that you spend in DMT hyperspace can you actually get to know the entities deeper and in the process can you actually gain a greater self-knowledge to the extent that those entities are just reflections of your

(43:50) own consciousness um well apparently so I I I've been in contact with quite a few people over the years who contact me and who I've people who are very experienced with DMT um particularly now people are using these uh vape pens um which is kind of a very crude dmtx and that you can actually control the level experience you know without having glass pipes and naked flames you can actually maintain yourself kind of within the space over time and I've I've had reports from people that they that

(44:30) over many months of using DMT regularly they are able to regularly make contact and meet and indeed develop a relationship with with certain entities and you know I believe them I have no reason to distrust that so it certainly seems possible it doesn't seem if you go in there with some kind of intent to to meet a certain entity and if you're familiar with that entity that it does seem possible that you can encounter that particular entity over time which is uh remarkable really because as you say you know it could be

(45:08) if you can establish some kind of two-way communication you might be able to Garner information about perhaps yourself but also perhaps their world I mean it's kind of it's uh it's almost unfathomable that we could you could develop this relationship with this this entity who you can then extract information or that's maybe the wrong word it sounds a bit closient Colonial list but um that you could actually really how develop some kind of two-way communicative relationships such as you can ask them questions about that the

(45:47) origin of their space you know we can't assume that it is just a reflection of the self these the sort of questions we can we can deal with if we can do that so I think that's really important actually aspect of this it's not just about mapping the space and kind of looking around uh in a but actually working more like an anthropologist um than just an Explorer and that you are actually getting to know the beings within the space and learning about their culture so to speak their hyper-dimensional culture and and where

(46:22) they came from and what they are and what they do and what it means you know that to me is a really important uh approach um it seems a much more natural approach for humans who are very communicative you know social beings we like to talk to other beings to get information so I think that's a really important approach that we can take with with DMT I think yeah I mean just I think uh just to compliment that I I think that if one looks into actually the anthropological literature of uh Amazonian cultures um whether whether it's mestizo or

(47:03) indigenous ones uh you'll find that you know Ayahuasca users especially shamans to develop stable relationships with you know the spirits that they encounter and the plants that they are attached to um and how there's a there's there's a clear relationship that is cultivated in that for the skillful use of certain medicines attached to those plants so I think I mean to your question Kenneth I think there is whether or not it's possible I think the anthropological literature suggests that it happens

(47:43) what I think is crucially different in that context from the psychonatic Western context is that the cosmology is kind of um supports that sort of cultivation of those relationships in these Amazonian cultures we've given extended forms of DMT to individuals on repeated occasions up to four occasions and we don't see the stability of these entities or these beings and again I'm not making any assumption here about the ontology of these beings and you're seeing their experiences um so we don't see a stability of them

(48:20) you know recurring the same entity or the same feature and it could be that with the right cultural priming uh for example a strong Cosmo Vision about you know entity X Y or Z then there could be some form of stabilization of that entity when the experiences are happening and that these relationships can be cultivated and that these relationships can be meaningful for the individual so I think it's a very context dependent thing whether or not these things are possible yeah Daniel did you have anything you wanted

(49:00) to add on to that yeah I've heard a story similar to what Chris is saying even at um Ayahuasca practitioner of having even a second life and a second family you know and a lot of people report back and have feeling um connected to their ancestors you know so these you know some of these entities might not be completely random but somehow connected to us if you believe in um that particular worldview and I I have had multiple experiences with the same entities that have come to talk to me and they speak in color and flashing

(49:34) lights and point the way you know somebody mentioned in the thing that their their guides they show us how to step into these inner spaces and I would love to have like a longer conversation in just a few minutes with that and sometimes the symbols that they share some of the visual symbols are Clues to personal processes and that I you know I've worked with and don't show up um for years and years later I don't understand why that particular symbol showed up for years I think of the dmtx ideas like a us like

(50:06) a foreign student Exchange program you're able to immerse yourself in another culture and hopefully it'll be stabilized long enough that you just don't like the channel just doesn't change over and over again and that you're able to have a ongoing relationship I think that's actually really possible in these spaces amazing thanks so much um so we'll take just two questions from online uh and then two questions from the in-person audience we are already a bit over time so Chris if you do need to

(50:36) head out um let me know um but hopefully what we can take about like maybe 15 minutes of questions from the audience um so the first one is from Adam he says the BMT experience feels like it comes from outside itself uh what is the reason for this questions so uh there's there could be many reasons why why it feels outside the cell and I think if you want to be very cynical about it you can give a very reductionistic explanation so uh so we see that there's a strong dysregulation of normal brain activity

(51:13) uh in the frontal cortex and we know that certain metacognitive capacities so the ability to be aware of our own thoughts or what is real and not real can be compromised if you will under a certain extent so I think from a reductionistic approach I'm not saying I have that approach I'm just saying that you know it's a possibility it could be that it feels real because her ability to determine what is real and not real is fairly compromised and uh there's not just this you know biological explanation there's also the

(51:51) fundamental logical explanation a lot of people have strong insights in these experiences which are not necessarily real and that upon further examination in fact do seem that you know they don't make much sense so it could be that the alternative explanation you know I'll leave it for for maybe others to to contribute to it okay so I guess you mean me [Laughter] um yeah so okay um so I think sure this reality testing is very is very difficult and and complicated and certainly I mean even in the dream state

(52:35) um this this frontal deactivation uh is present so you don't normally recognize that the dream state is a dream unless you are Lucid dreamer where you can kind of reactivate and you see this kind of thing also in schizophrenia where people hear voices and there is there seems to be an issue with the attribution of that voice that you would normally attribute to yourself because of this disconnectivity between the frontal and other parts of the brain um there is obviously you know the extremely alien nature of the experience the intensity

(53:10) the clarity all of these things the fact that it does seem to bear no relationship whatsoever to normal waking reality all of it makes it seem extremely alien which can contribute to that maybe and whether that means it truly is alien is a different matter um one thing I would say is that what you see with with dreamers is when when dreamers wake up they accept fully that it was just a dream and like likewise when schizophrenics are treated um when they they kind of they recover from their delusive delusionary thought

(53:50) process they again accept that the voice in their head was just them you know it wasn't real um what's striking I think about DMT is that even after the trip is over and you come down from the experience people are still utterly 100 convinced even though they know they took a drug they took a powerful psychedelic drug they they still remain completely convinced that this was not just so they have all of their reality testing faculties reconstructed and yet they will still tell you there's no way that this was

(54:28) just a hallucination or just a product of their own mind what do you make of that um I don't know but I I think it's quite interesting um that people are unwilling to accept oh that it was just uh that it was just some kind of dream process or just some kind of hallucination so I think there is there is there are still kind of pockets of the um the inexplicable that remain uh even uh after accounting for all of these aberrant and disorganized and all that uh neurological processes yeah I just I just want to come back sorry for urugues

(55:10) we've been like I actually wanted to copy what you said Andrew with the fact that um actually it's quite interesting because if you look at the at the model supported by the evidence around psychedelic action and we see that with DMT as well it seems that there is a part that has to do with a deconstruction of all these crystallized models of the world that we have constructed throughout our adulthood and uh and I actually think that there is room to put forward the hypothesis that there is some form of fundamental state of

(55:46) being that is somehow activated in these experiences very intense secondary experiences and certainly DMT experiences and um my my kind of like initial guess around why it feels so real is because it feels authentic the the experience has a form of Elementary feeling to it that is also geysed up many times in deceiving ways so that that would be my kind of like mixed also uh approach to that answer I guess maybe just add a few more pieces you know I've thought about this a lot and I think the brain is trying to perceive

(56:33) something more than four-dimensional you know and it can get a little unruly but I believe it's pointing to um this awareness of perception of more than four dimensions and I think by definition that makes it feel more real than real because what we experience as real is you know four-dimensional space and so I think there's you know like the brain is trying to wrap its head around something that it's hard for us to comprehend in a normal State um the other thing what Chris was pointing to it's like it feels familiar

(57:03) like uh there's something about it that it's more of a remembering than it is like an uncovering something new sometimes for a lot of people and so it's like returning to a place that you were before or you know or where you're gonna go when you die or where we were before we were born you know I'm not quite sure what that is but uh but if feels familiar and it's more of a remembering and I think that's what makes it feel more real and then you know the other thing that you know that

(57:31) the the caution of the more real than real doesn't mean it's true and I think you know Chris is pointing to that too in that like you know there are people who are psychotic that truly believe their their worldview is is very real um but it doesn't connect with consensus reality or other people's ability to understand it and Rick Strassman talked to me about this like when you experience a DNT State and you might be narcissistic and you believe you're the you know you're the peak of the world

(58:01) and the best that all things you know um that there's a lot of damage that can be done of somebody who really believes in their delusion you know so so it's it's I think it's really important to work with healthy people and also to check them when they come back and and you know like do the reality testing and and like and push their edges a little bit with what um Andrew was saying about like they really believe it happened you know and I think that's I don't we don't want to Discount that but we want to

(58:29) check it you know as much as we can so so those are my thoughts on that one for sure thanks so much all great great answers um this next one is a pretty quick one uh are there any plans to contact high-level Buddhist Meditation Masters that can be injected with DMT in other words enrolling meditate meditation Masters in dmtx you can speak to that briefly but you know we do want to work with you know not just Buddhist practitioners but other religious practitioners as well and that will be something that we'll

(59:02) step into as we get further along into the program but you know naropa University is here and there's a lot of Buddhist practitioners in this area but that would be the idea is Multicultural um spiritual practitioners so people who have like contemplative practices from multiple Traditions would be what I would like to do with it yeah on our end we're we're also working in a similar sort of Direction um precisely because again uh you know very experienced meditators have the capacity to talk about their experience

(59:34) at length and have a capacity to maintain a form of awareness in these extreme states they have a training of sorts uh which I guess you could argue that Psychonauts many times may have the only difference is that we know we don't have uh schools of practices of thousands of years of Psychonauts so it's it's I think it's very interesting to to go to very experienced police practitioners and I am particularly interested not just in DMT for that but also fighting the foxy DMT for that for that purpose because of

(1:00:07) the similarities between these non-dual states and these experiences of unity and nothingness that 5meo induces great um we'll now take a couple of questions from the audience unless Andrew did you want to chime in on that last question or no okay um so uh if you're if you have a question from the in-person audience could you just please come up to the laptop um so that everybody online can hear your questions so Chris if you want to just pick a couple people raising their hands over there sure I also have to leave but um okay

(1:00:42) we'll just we'll just do one question then one question no no you guys should keep uh don't uh don't mind me uh there you go um so you mentioned five new thoughts too and I was just really curious because obviously it's something that you can help is that something so kind of like how Angie mentioned where you could maybe like Infuse it for a longer period of time is that any research that you've seen anyone do maybe at the like Imperial Maybe a fiber meal X yeah no we're we're not uh I think it's it's

(1:01:19) too early to to think of something like that I mean I don't know it could be done it's just I think the safety profile the 5mm DMT is still not uh as well researched as the one from BMT what do you think would happen um because obviously the effects if you had to predict what would happen to someone well it depends on the dose it depends on on the the level of of that extreme but I would be kind of afraid to extend it too much but I think we do have you know methods of administration that could maybe to a

(1:01:51) certain extent uh prolongation which is international Administration for example or intramuscular Administration uh any control contexts it appears to be fairly safe although there is some data suggesting that you know these five mere experiences when they're strong they can be you know they can be challenging so so I think maybe but you know further along the line that's very cool thank you okay Mike came up oh so hopefully they have that yes yeah that all came through loud and clear uh online um so I know Chris has got to go uh and

(1:02:32) I'm sure Andrew's itching to get some sleep um so I think we'll end the event here even though I have probably 10 hours worth of questions that I could ask the three of you um so thank you so much again uh for joining us for this event I'd love to do another Edition where we can dive deeper into into coming up with these Maps um thank you so so much guys thank you very much thank you thanks everybody thank you

Mapping Out The DMT Hyperspace - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyXp7thv00

Transcript:

(00:00) okay great um let's get started um thank you so much everybody for joining us uh both in person at Oxford uh and online here on Zoom um I have a bit of a shoddy internet connection so I apologize if it goes awry we've got a truly International crowd today so uh Chris Timmerman is uh joining the audience in person at Oxford uh Daniel McQueen is calling in from Colorado uh and Andrew Gallimore is calling in from Okinawa Japan uh where it is currently 4 30 a.

(00:35) m sorry from Tokyo from Tokyo um where it's for 4 30 in the morning so Andrew you're a real trooper um thank you so much for joining us um so this is uh mapping out DMT hyperspace um we are very lucky to be joined today by three incredible speakers uh Andrew galmore Chris Timberman and Daniel McQueen will be speaking in that order uh let me just introduce the three speakers very briefly uh Dr Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist pharmacologist chemiston writer who's been interested in the

(01:07) neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is an author of a number of Articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug DMT and its effects on the brain and Consciousness we recently collaborated with DNT Pioneer Dr Rick Strassman author of DMT The Spirit Molecule to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended Journeys in DMT space also known as dmtx his current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gaining access to extra-dimensional realities

(01:36) and how this can be understood in terms of the Neuroscience of information he currently lives and works in Japan next Chris Timmerman obtained a BSC in Psychology in Santiago Chile and an MSC in cognitive neuroscience at the University of Bologna in Italy he is based at Imperial College London at the center for psychedelic research where he led near Imaging research on the effects of the potent psychedelic DMT in the human brain and Consciousness his work focuses on the Neuroscience psychology beliefs and ethics of the Psychedelic

(02:04) experience and finally last but not least Daniel McQueen is a psychedelic specialist psychedelic therapy educator activist and author of the book psychedelic cannabis in 2012 he co-founded the center of medicinal mindfulness which is the first legal plant-based psychedelic Therapy Center in the United States Daniel specializes in using cannabis assisted psychedelic therapy and ketamine assisted psychedelic therapy as tools for transformation and healing his work with psychedelic cannabis has created a widespread movement of

(02:32) practitioners across the U.S and Canada in 2016 to test his own activist edges Daniel initiated the dmtx research and exploration program to implement a new Extended State DMT Administration protocol that was designed by Dr Andrew Gallimore and Dr Rick Strassman most recently with the team of naropa aligned psychedelic Advocates Daniel helped found the non-profit medicinal mindfulness Center for psychedelics spirituality and sustainability to focus on the use of psychedelics and ethical professional settings for healing and to

(03:00) help transform the global climate crisis so truly an All-Star team thank you the three of us for joining um so the event is going to consist of three 15-minute presentations from Andrew Chris and then Daniel and then we'll launch into a moderated q a and finally some questions from the audience and will aim to be done by 9 pm UK time so Andrew without further Ado I'll let you take it away yep yep okay okay good morning everybody um thanks for coming um Okay so I get I will talk briefly about um I guess the origins a little bit of

(03:42) um dmtx and why I'm particularly uh interested in in DMT and what I see is the um the potential use cases for DMT which might differ from Chris's but we will we will see um so first of all is that not working oh there we go obligatory plugs please do go to my website if you want to see everything that I write about and talk about and all that kind of stuff the building alienworlds.

(04:17) com uh also please do buy my new book reality switch Technologies recommended by Hamilton Morris hey who else um and or my first book as well uh Alien information Theory which is also excellent not recommended by Hamilton Morris um so DMT um for me is interesting more than interesting it is astonishingly remarkably fascinating for me and has been for uh at least a couple of decades um and is what what kind of prompted me to think about uh or to inspire dmtx originally back in sort of 2015.

(05:05) um whilst we've learned largely um owing to the work of the Imperial College team and others we know a lot more about DMT now and how it works in the brain there's still uh um uh quite a lot I would say about dmt's phenomenology that we still do not understand and that we still struggle to explain uh and I would dare say quite a lot that we that remains somewhat confounding even as a neuroscientist I find the the complexity and the content and the structure of the DMT space to be utterly confounding and I don't think it

(05:52) is straightforward to explain it um so extended sojourns within the DMT space certainly can have a lot of value there um um and of course you're all familiar I think with the the the phenomenology of the DMT space this inordinate complexity it's hyper technological space that appears to contain more spatial Dimensions than than our three plus one dimensional Universe the presence of these extremely powerful and a seemingly hyper intelligent beings um the the Lucidity the efficiency and the clarity of the space is is is quite

(06:36) remarkable um uh and of course that that old question that everyone asks when when you talk about DMT is it real sort of the ontological question I think is for me at least an extremely interesting one perhaps the central question we all want to know the answer to Is it real whatever real might mean and perhaps we can talk about that um so I think we have three basic broad interpretations of the DMT space we can we can call it some kind of hallucination that would be your Orthodox default position it is a pure

(07:13) wild fabrication of the human brain um Perhaps it is um some kind of unconscious structures bubbling up from the collective psyche um in a sort of jungian sense that has some merits as well or shifting to the much more um unorthodox slightly more far out explanations which I tend to um reach into sometimes to uh some criticism but whatever the idea that we might in fact be dealing with some kind of intelligent some kind of non-human discard alien dare we say intelligence from some other external reality these are

(08:01) unanswered questions um so the problem with DMT of course is that it is a very brief trip you you're hurtled into this extremely bizarre realm and disoriented shocked horrified appalled um you have a chance to look around wide-eyed for three minutes four minutes maybe Max at the peak um and then you are dragged back into the consensus world again so it is not a the standard smoking or bolus administration of DMT is not amenable to more detailed analysis and exploration and we say mapping which is what we're going to

(08:50) talk about today so the idea that we might be able to extend the experience by using this technology Illustrated here from anesthesiology came to me back in in in in 2015 the the idea of delivering DMT with this slowest sustained drip is certainly not my idea originally um other people have used similar Technologies but I think um what um myself and Rick Strassman were able to bring to the table was the idea of using a pharmacokinetic model using the technology from um anesthesiology what's called Target controlled intravenous infusion or TCI

(09:44) to actually maintain a stable brain concentration so you're not merely delivering a um an infusion but you're actually delivering a programmed infusion informed by a pharmacokinetic model such that you can maintain a stable brain DMT concentration over time so you can induce somebody into the DMT State and hold them there at a stable level rather than having the levels fluctuate or based upon chance or guesswork so the the target controlled intervenous infusion technology relies upon this this pharmacokinetic model and that

(10:28) takes account of the um the distribution and metabolism and excretion elimination of the drug over time so as to maintain this stable brain concentration uh and I know that Chris Timmerman and collaborators have been able to much improve upon this proof of principle model that myself and uh Rick Strassman uh developed um so so what originally prompted me to um to uh to believe that DMT was amenable to this technology was it's its unique uh pharmacological peculiarities that make it almost almost as if it was designed to be used in this way and that

(11:25) it has this very rapid but brief clinical or subjective effects and as Rick Strassman was able to demonstrate in the in the 90s that it doesn't have a behavioral tolerance so you can inject somebody with DMT and and they will have a certain intensity of effect she was able to measure and then inject them 30 minutes later they would have exactly the same intensity of effects so this is a a really important Discovery by by Rick Strassman um which meant to me having as I was reading his papers that it would make

(12:04) DMT amenable to this kind of um technology um so so I wrote to Rick um back in sometime in 2015 and asked for his blood data hoped that he would still have this Blood data which fortunately he did um and that allowed me to construct this this preliminary proof of principle model which we then published um in 2016 and which I think it's fair to say peaked a lot of people's interest in in this and it's it's kind of remarkable to me and very nice to see that um in the seven years since this paper has

(12:54) been published now almost um it's it's garnered a lot of attention and and inspired a lot of people and we're actually now it's kind of amazing we have two people here also talking who are actually um implementing this technology um some for more academic and some more academic side the established Proper University so to speak at Imperial and then perhaps closer to my original Vision the kind of the the non-academic um the more exploratory size so it's we have a nice balance there which is cool

(13:30) and no doubt there will be other groups who appear in the in the coming years uh also developing their own version of dmtx um so yeah so the idea is that now this initial roller coaster entry phase which is normally the extent of the DMT experience after the bolus injection you can push past that and enter what I would call in orientation phase where the individual is able to kind of Orient themselves within the DMT space and then it was my hope my my prediction am I well mainly My Hope um that the state would actually

(14:17) stabilize over time that the the the subject the Tripper the junior uh would actually be able to fully Orient themselves and remain stable within the state which would then open up the space for uh more detailed exploration to mapping and perhaps even to experiments and that kind of thing and I think hopefully that's something that's been borne out with with the Imperial teams experiments maybe Chris will talk about that um so what do we do with with dmtx um finally um the obviously there are the more kind of

(14:55) prosaic applications of dmtx so you know the clinical applications which aren't in which certainly aren't insignificant and could be quite important I think because you can um control the level of the experience bring people in bring them out and kind of allow um kind of multiple integration periods within the same trip you know pushing them a little bit further dealing with some kind of uh unconscious material that kind of thing then bring them out to actually discuss that so I think it has many advantages perhaps over just

(15:31) giving someone you know psilocybin or LSD or whatever and then kind of riding out over several hours the trip so but also of course for me personally I'm I'm more interested in the phenomenology of the state um and I think there are two broad questions which we we might get to talk about today obviously this is the mapping one um in in quotation marks here in um I think there are many ways we can interpret the word mapping and that's obviously something we're going to talk about today so mapping of the space and

(16:05) also the occupancy The Entity experiences these are some of the most interesting aspects who you meet in the DMT space I think many people people are particularly interested in and then then we have questions of ontological testing so is it real and I think there are two broad ways that you might look at that and one is to actually test in some way the DMT Space by the brain um and also testing the entities themselves um so testing the the space what I mean here is a breaking Convention of three years ago I spoke about this idea of whether the

(16:49) DMT world could be thought of as a sensed world or as a dreamt world so a sensed world is one that is constrained and um um constrained by sensory information um sensed worlds are not magical worlds they have certain properties so the normal waking world has certain properties uh it has has stability it has consistency it has predictability uh and um Jeff Hawkins theoretical neuroscientist spelled that wrong sorry um says predictability is the very definition of reality so we might be able to actually judge the reality the

(17:30) ontology of the DMT space not by kind of having to kind of reach out into the space and actually test the beings or whatever but actually look at how the brain is constructing it and that might tell us whether it's a world that's being actively modulated actively constrained by some kind of sensory information from outside the brain reverses a purely dreamed world or a purely hallucinated world so I think there's a lot of the the DMT space might be amenable to testing in that way without having to

(18:02) actually um reach out into the space and then of course um for many years people have thought about how we might test the entities to determine whether or not they are real so to speak and we can think of tasks or that we might give them people have thought about giving them mathematical problems finding the unique prime factors of very large numbers something that a human brain couldn't do during the trip or any time really and that these beings if they truly are at you know hyper intelligences they might be able to to achieve there aren't

(18:42) this is obviously there are issues with this kind of uh tests um but also you might ask the entities to provide information that cannot be known by the subject this kind of thing um okay so I think how I'm going to be speaking I think that's enough for me um so I will finish there and so we have a lot more to discuss then so thank you very much great thank you so much Andrew um we'll now switch over to Chris uh who is live in Oxford um and now we will go to uh Daniel McQueen for the third and final

(19:21) presentation hey everybody how's my volume I think you're I think you're you're good all right great uh well thanks for having me and uh Chris congratulations on the um on being able to do the Expeditions that's really wonderful uh it's inspiring to be part of this program and uh and being inspired by uh you both Andrew it's great seeing you here as well um I have a short presentation I'd like to share with you all so I just a name that I'm coming from a completely different orientation as a psychedelic

(19:57) guide and facilitator I'm here in Boulder Colorado and I was uh I learned about Extended State DMT through Rick Strassman who sent us who sent me the um paper that he and Andrew wrote in 2016 and then I gave a presentation on the subject just here you know the topic uh as a is something that really inspired me when we did a presentation uh called psychedelic shine here in Boulder where we had Dennis McKinnon come to speak as well so and then after that people started to ask me well what would it take to do this we should try to do this

(20:32) so I started to explore what it would actually take so I'm coming from a foundation of stepping out of the research space and into a realm of possibly designing Retreat experiences and intensive experiences for a different populations and communities so let me share my screen here and we'll just um hold on just a second we'll just hop right into it can you all see that okay here we go this looks normal okay so if you're interested in learning more about my program where the where the um where the one of the first psychedelic

(21:15) therapy centers in the United States working in a legal setting we work with cannabis as a psychedelic and ketamine and proposition 122 just passed here in Colorado and so now psilocybin and DMT are legal for personal use and we'll be stepping into regulated uh a regulated model in the next few years so we're going to start working with psilocybin in DMT in a clinical Community setting um and so I'd like to invite you to explore cannabis as a psychedelic because there's a lot of similarities

(21:46) between a strong uh cannabis experience and an extended state trip very similar to Ayahuasca and psilocybin um one of our primary partners that I'd like to recommend checking out is new nautics and Andrew I believe you're on the board of advisors now with mnotics and Egon ehrenberg's group so so this is a community to help us with the non-profit side of the word and then our program is called dreamline technology Expeditions we actually created a company to handle all the back end Logistics of this work so and Andrew

(22:23) came up with the concept of the name dmtx we worked together to play with the name what we call an extended state DNC and I know there's other names for it as well um so one of the primary differences of our program and what Chris is doing is that we work within a multi-paradigm approach where we acknowledge and and foundation and scientific inquiry but we also honor the spiritual and the existential Dimensions the transpersonal dimensions of this work we work with a lot of indigenous practitioners and other

(22:59) spiritual practitioners and then most of our team comes from a grounded clinical background so psychological safety and exploration is really important to us and then honoring the community aspects of DMT and other psychedelic medicines the creativity and Aesthetics so we do a lot of art around this work and we honor we want to bring in more music as a as a facilitator's tool to this and and I put on here this mirrors the primary missions of our particular program and that we want to work not only do we want

(23:34) to just explore this space I think Chris is taking the lead on on the logistics and the safety and all of that piece and once that's dialed in we want to put scientists through this experiment and see what that does to their psyche and their brain and maybe it can help them come up with a big solutions to world problems another idea we want to do is bring in a spiritual and religious practitioners and teachers so creating like community events around this where people can come together I have a shared Vision or intention have

(24:14) an experience a shared experience with extended state DMT and then come back and speak to it and maybe something phenomenal will come out of that um so here's our current team and I'm going to share a little bit about what we've done over the last few years but myself and Carla Dr Clemens is our co-facilitators we do have a medical team comprising of anesthesiologists and medical doctors and nurses we have a clinical team with psychologists and a lot of art therapists licensed professional counselors this is to

(24:47) ensure that people are landing well and have the support they need afterwards and then we have a technical team we're also interested in EEG work thinking that maybe we might be able to stabilize it in different ways than what Chris is saying um and we're also bringing an art an art artist a sketch artist so that they can have the experiences described to them and actually jot it down and try to create some images around this um and right now we have a cohort of of a dmtx Psychonauts that we've been

(25:21) training with over the last few years one of the things really quick set is like comparing the the typical modern DMT experience and and what he like called Visionary States um you know using ancient Judaism as a as a model was that there was a lot more um stability and meaning in the people who had um who had mindfulness practices and so we're con we're actively engaging in practicing different mindfulness techniques to help bring in stability to these these Extended State experiences um and then Andrew mentioned just

(26:01) alluded to this so I just went ahead and added this slide that we think that there might be different applications for different levels of DMT stabilization from like on the lower end from like clinical disorders and physiological disorders uh that could you know maybe DMT infusions could help then there's like these a little bit higher level of creative psycholytic levels of therapeutic or aren't enhancing then there's like the Ayahuasca levels and then a dual awareness space where you're kind of

(26:29) you're it looks it sounds like what Chris was doing was they're able to communicate through the uh Journey um and give feedback in the present moment and then what we would call like the Breakthrough state where a person was was probably non-responsive but going into a full DMT experience for an extended period of time how long someone can do this you know like is going to be an interesting question I just I know from experience that people's bladders start talking to them about an hour and a half you know

(26:58) so we're wondering you know about like just the physical um um limitations of of being in these states and then and then we think that there's probably an upper limit of just usability that there might not be like you know like just to not take too much otherwise it would just become too fragmented and disconnected and confusing um and this is what I believe you know this is now an ancient alchemical uh image which I think I've seen on Andrew used before in the past but like there's this normal reality that we're all part

(27:33) of that's three-dimensional plus time and then there it does appear to be this ability with the use of DMT as a technology to um start like our brains attempting to perceive higher dimensional states of reality that may be populated by something that's objectively um unique and different than us not interconnected with us but maybe something more than us so that's the big question that we're all curious about and then you know again we love art and uh and so we created these astronaut psychonaut badges you know that we give

(28:09) to our team members and things you know just to bring in community and play and uh creativity into these programs and then and Andrew shared an older version of this image but you know like eventually like creating some sort of DMT manual you know space technology and DMT technology is really interrelated so I keep playing with this idea of like when SpaceX goes to Mars you know what are they going to do for taking a break from that little pod you know maybe maybe Extended State DMT can go to Mars with the with the astronauts at some

(28:40) point in their future maybe 50 or 100 years who knows um and and then um let's see so what have I been doing these last few years while you all been working on your projects uh we did it we've done a series of psychonaut training uh Retreats and Expeditions using legal medicines here in Colorado and so the first one we did we had a community you know we have these communities are about you know 20 person groups we work with cannabis uh cannabis and breath work and then we actually participated in a Peyote ceremony as a community

(29:13) and the intention was to you know prepare ourselves psychically so to speak spiritually mentally physically for Extended State DMT experiences um then we did another one the next year in added ketamine experiences and I've been working with a lot Academy a bit with clients and working with it myself as well and I'm starting to see the connections with ketamine and DMT and how to navigate these really deep spaces that are very altered um in DMT X3 um we went online and worked with cannabis and breath work again because

(29:51) we were supposed to go to Costa Rica and this was right we were planning this right as covet was happening and uh and Costa Rica was supposed to be our first DMT related experiences with Ayahuasca analogs and smoke smoke DNT junga and that got canceled so we went online instead and then the mtx4 um is going to happen this year in Colorado we were set to go to Jamaica so we had set it up we were getting the medicine imported I don't want to go into the details of all of that but um you know we have a legal team and we

(30:28) were having the medicine imported for um DMT experiences in Jamaica because it was legal there that got postponed because um our offices got flooded we had this weird climate change related event here in Colorado it was like a really significant storm and it flooded our offices and it and it derailed our program for about a month and at that same time I realized that proposition 122 was going to be voted on so we paused the trip realizing that maybe we could just bring the dntx program to Colorado and so proposition 122 passed

(31:07) and we're going to do our first real you know full DMT Retreat using smoke DMT this summer here in Colorado First legal DMT retreat in the United States possibly and then we're starting to uh we're going to start a series of expedition Retreats using smoke DMT while we figure out the regulated model and bringing in synthetic DMT for the extended state DNT experience and that's gonna you know that's that'll be happen you know the next few years is is kind of the intention there um so here here what we were thinking

(31:47) this was our Costa Rica Expedition well that didn't happen but we were going to work out of these little pod rooms um that were really nice um uh different set and setting set up music and things uh and have a really nice contained space and that this is what it would um this would be the setup for something like this so what Chris has done you know something that we hope to do and to have co-guides medical direct medical doctor and a nurse a lot of equipment in the room but a lot of support as well where they and and also you know like

(32:22) initially doing it with intentionality meditation and depending on the client or the or the psycho not possibly prayer as well within beautiful meditation altar in the middle in front of the Psychonauts so they could see something pretty that was nice to them before they go into the Expedition and then the long-term goal to make it more affordable um and to to explore with group [Music] um group Expeditions is that create a larger room with up you know four Psychonauts going about the same time with kind of a station in the middle for

(33:00) the medical staff but away from the visual um view of the of the Psychonauts each one having sitter and guides and and then having like a again like a different technology in the room for monitoring safety and possibly even documenting you know with video and film and then after people would come out of the journey experiences they would go directly to assessment experts and integration therapists um and uh maybe even the sketch artist you know to share their experiences as well so um so that's about where we're at like

(33:41) we're right on the next few months we'll be doing our first DMT Journey Expeditions and and hopefully that will you know build from there to be able to offer Extended State DMT when um you know again the laws on the regulations kind of catch up to us here in Colorado so um so that's that's what I have to share for you all thank you so much Daniel um absolutely fantastic talk um so we are now um at uh it's now 8 45.

(34:19) it's only got about 15 minutes left um in uh this event um so I'll just ask one question um real quick uh and then um and then move on to questions from the audiences I'm sure there are many um so the title of this event is mapping out DMT hyperspace and I want to get your thoughts on to what extent we can actually create a real map of the DMT hyperspace and what that map actually looks like you know like in a physical map we have coordinates right latitude and longitude what were the coordinates of the DMT map look like

(34:58) okay should I begin go ahead um yeah so this is a really interesting question I think the idea of mapping um has been raised by a number of people I think there's there's a little bit of um hyperbole surrounding the idea of mapping I think a lot of people thought that the idea of mapping the DMT space is kind of ridiculous um because it is so complex uh it is so strange it is so variable um so I don't think we're anywhere close to a kind of an Ordnance survey you won't know what that is kind of maybe

(35:36) you will I don't have that in the States but anyway um so you know some kind of Ordinance survey map of the DMT space I think is out of the question but that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of mapping um so one can think about um level mapping for example so um do different levels of intensity of experience reliably take you to different types of spaces is there a um a progression I mean people talk already about you know the moving through the waiting room and the Dome and there's already been developed in a

(36:16) very informal sense uh a certain kind of mapping of the space you know what is the normal procession through the space so I think we have that that's something that we can we can anchor and work with um and and and formalize more and get a better description of the kind of experience one should expect even if there is going to be some stochasticity there and variability between individuals uh but also mapping might also mean um the the kind of the topological or geometric structure of the space I know there are a number

(36:56) of people thinking about that you know can we can we map how the the geometry uh and the topology of the space changes over time can we formalize that can we get a formal description of the different types of the kind of mathematical spatial structure of the space over time um so I think there's a lot we can we can do with mapping and then of course mapping the the entities as well you know the Flora and Fauna of the DNT space um so I think it needs to be worked out what we mean by mapping but I don't

(37:30) think we're completely lost um when it comes to the idea of mapping I think there are many things that we can um many approaches I think we're spoiled for Choice really the number of approaches we can take when it comes to formally describing a much better way than we have now Beyond kind of just kind of trip reports kind of phenomenological verbal trip reports um Daniel spoke about getting actual pictures being drawn of the space you know and so I think yeah I think there are many opportunities there

(38:05) um before we move on to either Chris or Daniel I just want to say to the people online uh please post your questions in the chat uh and I'll read them out um uh later on um Chris go ahead yeah I mean I think that the the idea of mapping is interesting and important because um after doing many of these interviews I've realized that a big part of the experience is determined by cultural factors as you would expect um and much more than people intuitively or naively think when it comes to DMT I think that there's a bit of a trick with

(38:44) the DMT space that it makes you feel that what you're seeing is very fundamental and authentic and um I think people tend to forget quite a bit that our ordinary perception is filled with traps and assumptions about what is real out there um so I think that what the first step to take to try to achieve any form of mapping is to take a rigorous approach to understand these experiences and we have Traditions that can help us in that regard so one tradition is for example the tradition of phenomenology and the

(39:24) phenomenologists uh you know the philosophical tradition of the careful and disciplined examination of experience um and we have other Traditions that are linked to contemplative practices uh I think that this is actually one of the most fruitful possible approaches that I think from phenomenology that we can take here is how do we train individuals to examine their own experiences with a critical perspective so I think what can be derived from that and what is interesting actually for us to understand you know how is this a

(40:01) method for exploration of you know what it means to be alive um is not try to understand so much the contents of the experience but the structures of the experience the forms what are the fundamental properties of how these things come about so you're much more interested in the process rather than in the confidence um and the way to do that I think is fundamentally a relational process so you need you know to have another person an experienced facilitator who have undergone you know all those tricky aspects of examining their own

(40:37) experiences with a critical eye that can help you scaffold your own process of examining your own experience so I think that that's that's kind of like the approach that I think is is more fruitful and that hopefully will get us advanced in in a way to try to understand these experiences a bit better rather than you know over fetishizing certain features of it that seems to be you know almost means down into these cultures so I think yeah I think that would be my general approach when it comes to the idea of

(41:10) mapping experience foreign thanks so much Chris uh Daniel did you have anything you wanted to add on to that yeah I'll just point uh a couple of things that are a little different I agree with everything that um Chris and Andrew were saying um we've noticed that there's like uh like levels maybe what what Andrew was saying what I would put them under would be like personal biographical material and then what we would have is like the collective unconscious or dreamlike material which you know archetypal

(41:40) uncultural then there appears to be like a like a level beyond that which might be uh considered transpersonal or you could use like there's different religious models that might come into play here and then possibly like multi what would you call them like the Multiverse or multiple realities or just this very bizarre alien landscape that's not human at all um another way I would consider mapping it is temporal like past present and future like is the content about the past is it about like what's happening

(42:12) in the world today or is it like future oriented or like Vision or prophecy or like high technology science fiction type oriented would be another way I would look at it and then also like how fast time goes is it like personal like scales that are human or is it scales that are like geological and like Universal you know like witnessing the big bang and the creation of of galaxies and things like that um and then Chris I think you're you're pointing something really important is like mapping like healthy responses like

(42:46) clinically healthy responses to these experiences versus um what we would call unhealthy or diluted responses to the this medicine because I you know we get a lot of emails from people who use a lot of DMT and some of which I would say are expressing like unhealthy um Expeditions and overuse and you know like learning how to distinguish from like a real transpersonal phenomenon and something that is diluted or fantasy um and these are things that live work in the realm of like psychology and clinical applications of assessment you

(43:20) know so those would be areas that I would I would explore fantastic thanks so much Daniel um I'll ask just one more question because I can't resist um I'm I'm curious whether you guys think that it's possible to form uh relationships with uh the entities in the DMT space in other words the more time that you spend in DMT hyperspace can you actually get to know the entities deeper and in the process can you actually gain a greater self-knowledge to the extent that those entities are just reflections of your

(43:50) own consciousness um well apparently so I I I've been in contact with quite a few people over the years who contact me and who I've people who are very experienced with DMT um particularly now people are using these uh vape pens um which is kind of a very crude dmtx and that you can actually control the level experience you know without having glass pipes and naked flames you can actually maintain yourself kind of within the space over time and I've I've had reports from people that they that

(44:30) over many months of using DMT regularly they are able to regularly make contact and meet and indeed develop a relationship with with certain entities and you know I believe them I have no reason to distrust that so it certainly seems possible it doesn't seem if you go in there with some kind of intent to to meet a certain entity and if you're familiar with that entity that it does seem possible that you can encounter that particular entity over time which is uh remarkable really because as you say you know it could be

(45:08) if you can establish some kind of two-way communication you might be able to Garner information about perhaps yourself but also perhaps their world I mean it's kind of it's uh it's almost unfathomable that we could you could develop this relationship with this this entity who you can then extract information or that's maybe the wrong word it sounds a bit closient Colonial list but um that you could actually really how develop some kind of two-way communicative relationships such as you can ask them questions about that the

(45:47) origin of their space you know we can't assume that it is just a reflection of the self these the sort of questions we can we can deal with if we can do that so I think that's really important actually aspect of this it's not just about mapping the space and kind of looking around uh in a but actually working more like an anthropologist um than just an Explorer and that you are actually getting to know the beings within the space and learning about their culture so to speak their hyper-dimensional culture and and where

(46:22) they came from and what they are and what they do and what it means you know that to me is a really important uh approach um it seems a much more natural approach for humans who are very communicative you know social beings we like to talk to other beings to get information so I think that's a really important approach that we can take with with DMT I think yeah I mean just I think uh just to compliment that I I think that if one looks into actually the anthropological literature of uh Amazonian cultures um whether whether it's mestizo or

(47:03) indigenous ones uh you'll find that you know Ayahuasca users especially shamans to develop stable relationships with you know the spirits that they encounter and the plants that they are attached to um and how there's a there's there's a clear relationship that is cultivated in that for the skillful use of certain medicines attached to those plants so I think I mean to your question Kenneth I think there is whether or not it's possible I think the anthropological literature suggests that it happens

(47:43) what I think is crucially different in that context from the psychonatic Western context is that the cosmology is kind of um supports that sort of cultivation of those relationships in these Amazonian cultures we've given extended forms of DMT to individuals on repeated occasions up to four occasions and we don't see the stability of these entities or these beings and again I'm not making any assumption here about the ontology of these beings and you're seeing their experiences um so we don't see a stability of them

(48:20) you know recurring the same entity or the same feature and it could be that with the right cultural priming uh for example a strong Cosmo Vision about you know entity X Y or Z then there could be some form of stabilization of that entity when the experiences are happening and that these relationships can be cultivated and that these relationships can be meaningful for the individual so I think it's a very context dependent thing whether or not these things are possible yeah Daniel did you have anything you wanted

(49:00) to add on to that yeah I've heard a story similar to what Chris is saying even at um Ayahuasca practitioner of having even a second life and a second family you know and a lot of people report back and have feeling um connected to their ancestors you know so these you know some of these entities might not be completely random but somehow connected to us if you believe in um that particular worldview and I I have had multiple experiences with the same entities that have come to talk to me and they speak in color and flashing

(49:34) lights and point the way you know somebody mentioned in the thing that their their guides they show us how to step into these inner spaces and I would love to have like a longer conversation in just a few minutes with that and sometimes the symbols that they share some of the visual symbols are Clues to personal processes and that I you know I've worked with and don't show up um for years and years later I don't understand why that particular symbol showed up for years I think of the dmtx ideas like a us like

(50:06) a foreign student Exchange program you're able to immerse yourself in another culture and hopefully it'll be stabilized long enough that you just don't like the channel just doesn't change over and over again and that you're able to have a ongoing relationship I think that's actually really possible in these spaces amazing thanks so much um so we'll take just two questions from online uh and then two questions from the in-person audience we are already a bit over time so Chris if you do need to

(50:36) head out um let me know um but hopefully what we can take about like maybe 15 minutes of questions from the audience um so the first one is from Adam he says the BMT experience feels like it comes from outside itself uh what is the reason for this questions so uh there's there could be many reasons why why it feels outside the cell and I think if you want to be very cynical about it you can give a very reductionistic explanation so uh so we see that there's a strong dysregulation of normal brain activity

(51:13) uh in the frontal cortex and we know that certain metacognitive capacities so the ability to be aware of our own thoughts or what is real and not real can be compromised if you will under a certain extent so I think from a reductionistic approach I'm not saying I have that approach I'm just saying that you know it's a possibility it could be that it feels real because her ability to determine what is real and not real is fairly compromised and uh there's not just this you know biological explanation there's also the

(51:51) fundamental logical explanation a lot of people have strong insights in these experiences which are not necessarily real and that upon further examination in fact do seem that you know they don't make much sense so it could be that the alternative explanation you know I'll leave it for for maybe others to to contribute to it okay so I guess you mean me [Laughter] um yeah so okay um so I think sure this reality testing is very is very difficult and and complicated and certainly I mean even in the dream state

(52:35) um this this frontal deactivation uh is present so you don't normally recognize that the dream state is a dream unless you are Lucid dreamer where you can kind of reactivate and you see this kind of thing also in schizophrenia where people hear voices and there is there seems to be an issue with the attribution of that voice that you would normally attribute to yourself because of this disconnectivity between the frontal and other parts of the brain um there is obviously you know the extremely alien nature of the experience the intensity

(53:10) the clarity all of these things the fact that it does seem to bear no relationship whatsoever to normal waking reality all of it makes it seem extremely alien which can contribute to that maybe and whether that means it truly is alien is a different matter um one thing I would say is that what you see with with dreamers is when when dreamers wake up they accept fully that it was just a dream and like likewise when schizophrenics are treated um when they they kind of they recover from their delusive delusionary thought

(53:50) process they again accept that the voice in their head was just them you know it wasn't real um what's striking I think about DMT is that even after the trip is over and you come down from the experience people are still utterly 100 convinced even though they know they took a drug they took a powerful psychedelic drug they they still remain completely convinced that this was not just so they have all of their reality testing faculties reconstructed and yet they will still tell you there's no way that this was

(54:28) just a hallucination or just a product of their own mind what do you make of that um I don't know but I I think it's quite interesting um that people are unwilling to accept oh that it was just uh that it was just some kind of dream process or just some kind of hallucination so I think there is there is there are still kind of pockets of the um the inexplicable that remain uh even uh after accounting for all of these aberrant and disorganized and all that uh neurological processes yeah I just I just want to come back sorry for urugues

(55:10) we've been like I actually wanted to copy what you said Andrew with the fact that um actually it's quite interesting because if you look at the at the model supported by the evidence around psychedelic action and we see that with DMT as well it seems that there is a part that has to do with a deconstruction of all these crystallized models of the world that we have constructed throughout our adulthood and uh and I actually think that there is room to put forward the hypothesis that there is some form of fundamental state of

(55:46) being that is somehow activated in these experiences very intense secondary experiences and certainly DMT experiences and um my my kind of like initial guess around why it feels so real is because it feels authentic the the experience has a form of Elementary feeling to it that is also geysed up many times in deceiving ways so that that would be my kind of like mixed also uh approach to that answer I guess maybe just add a few more pieces you know I've thought about this a lot and I think the brain is trying to perceive

(56:33) something more than four-dimensional you know and it can get a little unruly but I believe it's pointing to um this awareness of perception of more than four dimensions and I think by definition that makes it feel more real than real because what we experience as real is you know four-dimensional space and so I think there's you know like the brain is trying to wrap its head around something that it's hard for us to comprehend in a normal State um the other thing what Chris was pointing to it's like it feels familiar

(57:03) like uh there's something about it that it's more of a remembering than it is like an uncovering something new sometimes for a lot of people and so it's like returning to a place that you were before or you know or where you're gonna go when you die or where we were before we were born you know I'm not quite sure what that is but uh but if feels familiar and it's more of a remembering and I think that's what makes it feel more real and then you know the other thing that you know that

(57:31) the the caution of the more real than real doesn't mean it's true and I think you know Chris is pointing to that too in that like you know there are people who are psychotic that truly believe their their worldview is is very real um but it doesn't connect with consensus reality or other people's ability to understand it and Rick Strassman talked to me about this like when you experience a DNT State and you might be narcissistic and you believe you're the you know you're the peak of the world

(58:01) and the best that all things you know um that there's a lot of damage that can be done of somebody who really believes in their delusion you know so so it's it's I think it's really important to work with healthy people and also to check them when they come back and and you know like do the reality testing and and like and push their edges a little bit with what um Andrew was saying about like they really believe it happened you know and I think that's I don't we don't want to Discount that but we want to

(58:29) check it you know as much as we can so so those are my thoughts on that one for sure thanks so much all great great answers um this next one is a pretty quick one uh are there any plans to contact high-level Buddhist Meditation Masters that can be injected with DMT in other words enrolling meditate meditation Masters in dmtx you can speak to that briefly but you know we do want to work with you know not just Buddhist practitioners but other religious practitioners as well and that will be something that we'll

(59:02) step into as we get further along into the program but you know naropa University is here and there's a lot of Buddhist practitioners in this area but that would be the idea is Multicultural um spiritual practitioners so people who have like contemplative practices from multiple Traditions would be what I would like to do with it yeah on our end we're we're also working in a similar sort of Direction um precisely because again uh you know very experienced meditators have the capacity to talk about their experience

(59:34) at length and have a capacity to maintain a form of awareness in these extreme states they have a training of sorts uh which I guess you could argue that Psychonauts many times may have the only difference is that we know we don't have uh schools of practices of thousands of years of Psychonauts so it's it's I think it's very interesting to to go to very experienced police practitioners and I am particularly interested not just in DMT for that but also fighting the foxy DMT for that for that purpose because of

(1:00:07) the similarities between these non-dual states and these experiences of unity and nothingness that 5meo induces great um we'll now take a couple of questions from the audience unless Andrew did you want to chime in on that last question or no okay um so uh if you're if you have a question from the in-person audience could you just please come up to the laptop um so that everybody online can hear your questions so Chris if you want to just pick a couple people raising their hands over there sure I also have to leave but um okay

(1:00:42) we'll just we'll just do one question then one question no no you guys should keep uh don't uh don't mind me uh there you go um so you mentioned five new thoughts too and I was just really curious because obviously it's something that you can help is that something so kind of like how Angie mentioned where you could maybe like Infuse it for a longer period of time is that any research that you've seen anyone do maybe at the like Imperial Maybe a fiber meal X yeah no we're we're not uh I think it's it's

(1:01:19) too early to to think of something like that I mean I don't know it could be done it's just I think the safety profile the 5mm DMT is still not uh as well researched as the one from BMT what do you think would happen um because obviously the effects if you had to predict what would happen to someone well it depends on the dose it depends on on the the level of of that extreme but I would be kind of afraid to extend it too much but I think we do have you know methods of administration that could maybe to a

(1:01:51) certain extent uh prolongation which is international Administration for example or intramuscular Administration uh any control contexts it appears to be fairly safe although there is some data suggesting that you know these five mere experiences when they're strong they can be you know they can be challenging so so I think maybe but you know further along the line that's very cool thank you okay Mike came up oh so hopefully they have that yes yeah that all came through loud and clear uh online um so I know Chris has got to go uh and

(1:02:32) I'm sure Andrew's itching to get some sleep um so I think we'll end the event here even though I have probably 10 hours worth of questions that I could ask the three of you um so thank you so much again uh for joining us for this event I'd love to do another Edition where we can dive deeper into into coming up with these Maps um thank you so so much guys thank you very much thank you thanks everybody thank you

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