### Summary
The event discussed mapping out the DMT hyperspace with three speakers sharing their expertise on the subject. They explored the neuroscience, phenomenology, and potential applications of DMT experiences, including the possibility of forming relationships with entities in the DMT space.
### Highlights
- π§ DMT experiences can feel more real than reality due to brain dysregulation and the intense alien nature of the space.
- 𧬠The brain may struggle to perceive more than four dimensions, making DMT experiences feel authentic and familiar.
- π§ Plans to involve high-level Buddhist meditation masters and other spiritual practitioners in DMT research to explore the effects on experienced meditators.
### Keyword
DMT, hyperspace, neuroscience, entities, mapping, phenomenology, relationships, meditation masters, spiritual practitioners
Mapping Out The DMT Hyperspace - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyXp7thv00
Transcript:
(00:00) okay great um let's get started um thank you so much everybody for joining us uh both in person at Oxford uh and online here on Zoom um I have a bit of a shoddy internet connection so I apologize if it goes awry we've got a truly International crowd today so uh Chris Timmerman is uh joining the audience in person at Oxford uh Daniel McQueen is calling in from Colorado uh and Andrew Gallimore is calling in from Okinawa Japan uh where it is currently 4 30 a.
(00:35) m sorry from Tokyo from Tokyo um where it's for 4 30 in the morning so Andrew you're a real trooper um thank you so much for joining us um so this is uh mapping out DMT hyperspace um we are very lucky to be joined today by three incredible speakers uh Andrew galmore Chris Timberman and Daniel McQueen will be speaking in that order uh let me just introduce the three speakers very briefly uh Dr Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist pharmacologist chemiston writer who's been interested in the
(01:07) neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is an author of a number of Articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug DMT and its effects on the brain and Consciousness we recently collaborated with DNT Pioneer Dr Rick Strassman author of DMT The Spirit Molecule to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended Journeys in DMT space also known as dmtx his current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gaining access to extra-dimensional realities
(01:36) and how this can be understood in terms of the Neuroscience of information he currently lives and works in Japan next Chris Timmerman obtained a BSC in Psychology in Santiago Chile and an MSC in cognitive neuroscience at the University of Bologna in Italy he is based at Imperial College London at the center for psychedelic research where he led near Imaging research on the effects of the potent psychedelic DMT in the human brain and Consciousness his work focuses on the Neuroscience psychology beliefs and ethics of the Psychedelic
(02:04) experience and finally last but not least Daniel McQueen is a psychedelic specialist psychedelic therapy educator activist and author of the book psychedelic cannabis in 2012 he co-founded the center of medicinal mindfulness which is the first legal plant-based psychedelic Therapy Center in the United States Daniel specializes in using cannabis assisted psychedelic therapy and ketamine assisted psychedelic therapy as tools for transformation and healing his work with psychedelic cannabis has created a widespread movement of
(02:32) practitioners across the U.S and Canada in 2016 to test his own activist edges Daniel initiated the dmtx research and exploration program to implement a new Extended State DMT Administration protocol that was designed by Dr Andrew Gallimore and Dr Rick Strassman most recently with the team of naropa aligned psychedelic Advocates Daniel helped found the non-profit medicinal mindfulness Center for psychedelics spirituality and sustainability to focus on the use of psychedelics and ethical professional settings for healing and to
(03:00) help transform the global climate crisis so truly an All-Star team thank you the three of us for joining um so the event is going to consist of three 15-minute presentations from Andrew Chris and then Daniel and then we'll launch into a moderated q a and finally some questions from the audience and will aim to be done by 9 pm UK time so Andrew without further Ado I'll let you take it away yep yep okay okay good morning everybody um thanks for coming um Okay so I get I will talk briefly about um I guess the origins a little bit of
(03:42) um dmtx and why I'm particularly uh interested in in DMT and what I see is the um the potential use cases for DMT which might differ from Chris's but we will we will see um so first of all is that not working oh there we go obligatory plugs please do go to my website if you want to see everything that I write about and talk about and all that kind of stuff the building alienworlds.
(04:17) com uh also please do buy my new book reality switch Technologies recommended by Hamilton Morris hey who else um and or my first book as well uh Alien information Theory which is also excellent not recommended by Hamilton Morris um so DMT um for me is interesting more than interesting it is astonishingly remarkably fascinating for me and has been for uh at least a couple of decades um and is what what kind of prompted me to think about uh or to inspire dmtx originally back in sort of 2015.
(05:05) um whilst we've learned largely um owing to the work of the Imperial College team and others we know a lot more about DMT now and how it works in the brain there's still uh um uh quite a lot I would say about dmt's phenomenology that we still do not understand and that we still struggle to explain uh and I would dare say quite a lot that we that remains somewhat confounding even as a neuroscientist I find the the complexity and the content and the structure of the DMT space to be utterly confounding and I don't think it
(05:52) is straightforward to explain it um so extended sojourns within the DMT space certainly can have a lot of value there um um and of course you're all familiar I think with the the the phenomenology of the DMT space this inordinate complexity it's hyper technological space that appears to contain more spatial Dimensions than than our three plus one dimensional Universe the presence of these extremely powerful and a seemingly hyper intelligent beings um the the Lucidity the efficiency and the clarity of the space is is is quite
(06:36) remarkable um uh and of course that that old question that everyone asks when when you talk about DMT is it real sort of the ontological question I think is for me at least an extremely interesting one perhaps the central question we all want to know the answer to Is it real whatever real might mean and perhaps we can talk about that um so I think we have three basic broad interpretations of the DMT space we can we can call it some kind of hallucination that would be your Orthodox default position it is a pure
(07:13) wild fabrication of the human brain um Perhaps it is um some kind of unconscious structures bubbling up from the collective psyche um in a sort of jungian sense that has some merits as well or shifting to the much more um unorthodox slightly more far out explanations which I tend to um reach into sometimes to uh some criticism but whatever the idea that we might in fact be dealing with some kind of intelligent some kind of non-human discard alien dare we say intelligence from some other external reality these are
(08:01) unanswered questions um so the problem with DMT of course is that it is a very brief trip you you're hurtled into this extremely bizarre realm and disoriented shocked horrified appalled um you have a chance to look around wide-eyed for three minutes four minutes maybe Max at the peak um and then you are dragged back into the consensus world again so it is not a the standard smoking or bolus administration of DMT is not amenable to more detailed analysis and exploration and we say mapping which is what we're going to
(08:50) talk about today so the idea that we might be able to extend the experience by using this technology Illustrated here from anesthesiology came to me back in in in in 2015 the the idea of delivering DMT with this slowest sustained drip is certainly not my idea originally um other people have used similar Technologies but I think um what um myself and Rick Strassman were able to bring to the table was the idea of using a pharmacokinetic model using the technology from um anesthesiology what's called Target controlled intravenous infusion or TCI
(09:44) to actually maintain a stable brain concentration so you're not merely delivering a um an infusion but you're actually delivering a programmed infusion informed by a pharmacokinetic model such that you can maintain a stable brain DMT concentration over time so you can induce somebody into the DMT State and hold them there at a stable level rather than having the levels fluctuate or based upon chance or guesswork so the the target controlled intervenous infusion technology relies upon this this pharmacokinetic model and that
(10:28) takes account of the um the distribution and metabolism and excretion elimination of the drug over time so as to maintain this stable brain concentration uh and I know that Chris Timmerman and collaborators have been able to much improve upon this proof of principle model that myself and uh Rick Strassman uh developed um so so what originally prompted me to um to uh to believe that DMT was amenable to this technology was it's its unique uh pharmacological peculiarities that make it almost almost as if it was designed to be used in this way and that
(11:25) it has this very rapid but brief clinical or subjective effects and as Rick Strassman was able to demonstrate in the in the 90s that it doesn't have a behavioral tolerance so you can inject somebody with DMT and and they will have a certain intensity of effect she was able to measure and then inject them 30 minutes later they would have exactly the same intensity of effects so this is a a really important Discovery by by Rick Strassman um which meant to me having as I was reading his papers that it would make
(12:04) DMT amenable to this kind of um technology um so so I wrote to Rick um back in sometime in 2015 and asked for his blood data hoped that he would still have this Blood data which fortunately he did um and that allowed me to construct this this preliminary proof of principle model which we then published um in 2016 and which I think it's fair to say peaked a lot of people's interest in in this and it's it's kind of remarkable to me and very nice to see that um in the seven years since this paper has
(12:54) been published now almost um it's it's garnered a lot of attention and and inspired a lot of people and we're actually now it's kind of amazing we have two people here also talking who are actually um implementing this technology um some for more academic and some more academic side the established Proper University so to speak at Imperial and then perhaps closer to my original Vision the kind of the the non-academic um the more exploratory size so it's we have a nice balance there which is cool
(13:30) and no doubt there will be other groups who appear in the in the coming years uh also developing their own version of dmtx um so yeah so the idea is that now this initial roller coaster entry phase which is normally the extent of the DMT experience after the bolus injection you can push past that and enter what I would call in orientation phase where the individual is able to kind of Orient themselves within the DMT space and then it was my hope my my prediction am I well mainly My Hope um that the state would actually
(14:17) stabilize over time that the the the subject the Tripper the junior uh would actually be able to fully Orient themselves and remain stable within the state which would then open up the space for uh more detailed exploration to mapping and perhaps even to experiments and that kind of thing and I think hopefully that's something that's been borne out with with the Imperial teams experiments maybe Chris will talk about that um so what do we do with with dmtx um finally um the obviously there are the more kind of
(14:55) prosaic applications of dmtx so you know the clinical applications which aren't in which certainly aren't insignificant and could be quite important I think because you can um control the level of the experience bring people in bring them out and kind of allow um kind of multiple integration periods within the same trip you know pushing them a little bit further dealing with some kind of uh unconscious material that kind of thing then bring them out to actually discuss that so I think it has many advantages perhaps over just
(15:31) giving someone you know psilocybin or LSD or whatever and then kind of riding out over several hours the trip so but also of course for me personally I'm I'm more interested in the phenomenology of the state um and I think there are two broad questions which we we might get to talk about today obviously this is the mapping one um in in quotation marks here in um I think there are many ways we can interpret the word mapping and that's obviously something we're going to talk about today so mapping of the space and
(16:05) also the occupancy The Entity experiences these are some of the most interesting aspects who you meet in the DMT space I think many people people are particularly interested in and then then we have questions of ontological testing so is it real and I think there are two broad ways that you might look at that and one is to actually test in some way the DMT Space by the brain um and also testing the entities themselves um so testing the the space what I mean here is a breaking Convention of three years ago I spoke about this idea of whether the
(16:49) DMT world could be thought of as a sensed world or as a dreamt world so a sensed world is one that is constrained and um um constrained by sensory information um sensed worlds are not magical worlds they have certain properties so the normal waking world has certain properties uh it has has stability it has consistency it has predictability uh and um Jeff Hawkins theoretical neuroscientist spelled that wrong sorry um says predictability is the very definition of reality so we might be able to actually judge the reality the
(17:30) ontology of the DMT space not by kind of having to kind of reach out into the space and actually test the beings or whatever but actually look at how the brain is constructing it and that might tell us whether it's a world that's being actively modulated actively constrained by some kind of sensory information from outside the brain reverses a purely dreamed world or a purely hallucinated world so I think there's a lot of the the DMT space might be amenable to testing in that way without having to
(18:02) actually um reach out into the space and then of course um for many years people have thought about how we might test the entities to determine whether or not they are real so to speak and we can think of tasks or that we might give them people have thought about giving them mathematical problems finding the unique prime factors of very large numbers something that a human brain couldn't do during the trip or any time really and that these beings if they truly are at you know hyper intelligences they might be able to to achieve there aren't
(18:42) this is obviously there are issues with this kind of uh tests um but also you might ask the entities to provide information that cannot be known by the subject this kind of thing um okay so I think how I'm going to be speaking I think that's enough for me um so I will finish there and so we have a lot more to discuss then so thank you very much great thank you so much Andrew um we'll now switch over to Chris uh who is live in Oxford um and now we will go to uh Daniel McQueen for the third and final
(19:21) presentation hey everybody how's my volume I think you're I think you're you're good all right great uh well thanks for having me and uh Chris congratulations on the um on being able to do the Expeditions that's really wonderful uh it's inspiring to be part of this program and uh and being inspired by uh you both Andrew it's great seeing you here as well um I have a short presentation I'd like to share with you all so I just a name that I'm coming from a completely different orientation as a psychedelic
(19:57) guide and facilitator I'm here in Boulder Colorado and I was uh I learned about Extended State DMT through Rick Strassman who sent us who sent me the um paper that he and Andrew wrote in 2016 and then I gave a presentation on the subject just here you know the topic uh as a is something that really inspired me when we did a presentation uh called psychedelic shine here in Boulder where we had Dennis McKinnon come to speak as well so and then after that people started to ask me well what would it take to do this we should try to do this
(20:32) so I started to explore what it would actually take so I'm coming from a foundation of stepping out of the research space and into a realm of possibly designing Retreat experiences and intensive experiences for a different populations and communities so let me share my screen here and we'll just um hold on just a second we'll just hop right into it can you all see that okay here we go this looks normal okay so if you're interested in learning more about my program where the where the um where the one of the first psychedelic
(21:15) therapy centers in the United States working in a legal setting we work with cannabis as a psychedelic and ketamine and proposition 122 just passed here in Colorado and so now psilocybin and DMT are legal for personal use and we'll be stepping into regulated uh a regulated model in the next few years so we're going to start working with psilocybin in DMT in a clinical Community setting um and so I'd like to invite you to explore cannabis as a psychedelic because there's a lot of similarities
(21:46) between a strong uh cannabis experience and an extended state trip very similar to Ayahuasca and psilocybin um one of our primary partners that I'd like to recommend checking out is new nautics and Andrew I believe you're on the board of advisors now with mnotics and Egon ehrenberg's group so so this is a community to help us with the non-profit side of the word and then our program is called dreamline technology Expeditions we actually created a company to handle all the back end Logistics of this work so and Andrew
(22:23) came up with the concept of the name dmtx we worked together to play with the name what we call an extended state DNC and I know there's other names for it as well um so one of the primary differences of our program and what Chris is doing is that we work within a multi-paradigm approach where we acknowledge and and foundation and scientific inquiry but we also honor the spiritual and the existential Dimensions the transpersonal dimensions of this work we work with a lot of indigenous practitioners and other
(22:59) spiritual practitioners and then most of our team comes from a grounded clinical background so psychological safety and exploration is really important to us and then honoring the community aspects of DMT and other psychedelic medicines the creativity and Aesthetics so we do a lot of art around this work and we honor we want to bring in more music as a as a facilitator's tool to this and and I put on here this mirrors the primary missions of our particular program and that we want to work not only do we want
(23:34) to just explore this space I think Chris is taking the lead on on the logistics and the safety and all of that piece and once that's dialed in we want to put scientists through this experiment and see what that does to their psyche and their brain and maybe it can help them come up with a big solutions to world problems another idea we want to do is bring in a spiritual and religious practitioners and teachers so creating like community events around this where people can come together I have a shared Vision or intention have
(24:14) an experience a shared experience with extended state DMT and then come back and speak to it and maybe something phenomenal will come out of that um so here's our current team and I'm going to share a little bit about what we've done over the last few years but myself and Carla Dr Clemens is our co-facilitators we do have a medical team comprising of anesthesiologists and medical doctors and nurses we have a clinical team with psychologists and a lot of art therapists licensed professional counselors this is to
(24:47) ensure that people are landing well and have the support they need afterwards and then we have a technical team we're also interested in EEG work thinking that maybe we might be able to stabilize it in different ways than what Chris is saying um and we're also bringing an art an art artist a sketch artist so that they can have the experiences described to them and actually jot it down and try to create some images around this um and right now we have a cohort of of a dmtx Psychonauts that we've been
(25:21) training with over the last few years one of the things really quick set is like comparing the the typical modern DMT experience and and what he like called Visionary States um you know using ancient Judaism as a as a model was that there was a lot more um stability and meaning in the people who had um who had mindfulness practices and so we're con we're actively engaging in practicing different mindfulness techniques to help bring in stability to these these Extended State experiences um and then Andrew mentioned just
(26:01) alluded to this so I just went ahead and added this slide that we think that there might be different applications for different levels of DMT stabilization from like on the lower end from like clinical disorders and physiological disorders uh that could you know maybe DMT infusions could help then there's like these a little bit higher level of creative psycholytic levels of therapeutic or aren't enhancing then there's like the Ayahuasca levels and then a dual awareness space where you're kind of
(26:29) you're it looks it sounds like what Chris was doing was they're able to communicate through the uh Journey um and give feedback in the present moment and then what we would call like the Breakthrough state where a person was was probably non-responsive but going into a full DMT experience for an extended period of time how long someone can do this you know like is going to be an interesting question I just I know from experience that people's bladders start talking to them about an hour and a half you know
(26:58) so we're wondering you know about like just the physical um um limitations of of being in these states and then and then we think that there's probably an upper limit of just usability that there might not be like you know like just to not take too much otherwise it would just become too fragmented and disconnected and confusing um and this is what I believe you know this is now an ancient alchemical uh image which I think I've seen on Andrew used before in the past but like there's this normal reality that we're all part
(27:33) of that's three-dimensional plus time and then there it does appear to be this ability with the use of DMT as a technology to um start like our brains attempting to perceive higher dimensional states of reality that may be populated by something that's objectively um unique and different than us not interconnected with us but maybe something more than us so that's the big question that we're all curious about and then you know again we love art and uh and so we created these astronaut psychonaut badges you know that we give
(28:09) to our team members and things you know just to bring in community and play and uh creativity into these programs and then and Andrew shared an older version of this image but you know like eventually like creating some sort of DMT manual you know space technology and DMT technology is really interrelated so I keep playing with this idea of like when SpaceX goes to Mars you know what are they going to do for taking a break from that little pod you know maybe maybe Extended State DMT can go to Mars with the with the astronauts at some
(28:40) point in their future maybe 50 or 100 years who knows um and and then um let's see so what have I been doing these last few years while you all been working on your projects uh we did it we've done a series of psychonaut training uh Retreats and Expeditions using legal medicines here in Colorado and so the first one we did we had a community you know we have these communities are about you know 20 person groups we work with cannabis uh cannabis and breath work and then we actually participated in a Peyote ceremony as a community
(29:13) and the intention was to you know prepare ourselves psychically so to speak spiritually mentally physically for Extended State DMT experiences um then we did another one the next year in added ketamine experiences and I've been working with a lot Academy a bit with clients and working with it myself as well and I'm starting to see the connections with ketamine and DMT and how to navigate these really deep spaces that are very altered um in DMT X3 um we went online and worked with cannabis and breath work again because
(29:51) we were supposed to go to Costa Rica and this was right we were planning this right as covet was happening and uh and Costa Rica was supposed to be our first DMT related experiences with Ayahuasca analogs and smoke smoke DNT junga and that got canceled so we went online instead and then the mtx4 um is going to happen this year in Colorado we were set to go to Jamaica so we had set it up we were getting the medicine imported I don't want to go into the details of all of that but um you know we have a legal team and we
(30:28) were having the medicine imported for um DMT experiences in Jamaica because it was legal there that got postponed because um our offices got flooded we had this weird climate change related event here in Colorado it was like a really significant storm and it flooded our offices and it and it derailed our program for about a month and at that same time I realized that proposition 122 was going to be voted on so we paused the trip realizing that maybe we could just bring the dntx program to Colorado and so proposition 122 passed
(31:07) and we're going to do our first real you know full DMT Retreat using smoke DMT this summer here in Colorado First legal DMT retreat in the United States possibly and then we're starting to uh we're going to start a series of expedition Retreats using smoke DMT while we figure out the regulated model and bringing in synthetic DMT for the extended state DNT experience and that's gonna you know that's that'll be happen you know the next few years is is kind of the intention there um so here here what we were thinking
(31:47) this was our Costa Rica Expedition well that didn't happen but we were going to work out of these little pod rooms um that were really nice um uh different set and setting set up music and things uh and have a really nice contained space and that this is what it would um this would be the setup for something like this so what Chris has done you know something that we hope to do and to have co-guides medical direct medical doctor and a nurse a lot of equipment in the room but a lot of support as well where they and and also you know like
(32:22) initially doing it with intentionality meditation and depending on the client or the or the psycho not possibly prayer as well within beautiful meditation altar in the middle in front of the Psychonauts so they could see something pretty that was nice to them before they go into the Expedition and then the long-term goal to make it more affordable um and to to explore with group [Music] um group Expeditions is that create a larger room with up you know four Psychonauts going about the same time with kind of a station in the middle for
(33:00) the medical staff but away from the visual um view of the of the Psychonauts each one having sitter and guides and and then having like a again like a different technology in the room for monitoring safety and possibly even documenting you know with video and film and then after people would come out of the journey experiences they would go directly to assessment experts and integration therapists um and uh maybe even the sketch artist you know to share their experiences as well so um so that's about where we're at like
(33:41) we're right on the next few months we'll be doing our first DMT Journey Expeditions and and hopefully that will you know build from there to be able to offer Extended State DMT when um you know again the laws on the regulations kind of catch up to us here in Colorado so um so that's that's what I have to share for you all thank you so much Daniel um absolutely fantastic talk um so we are now um at uh it's now 8 45.
(34:19) it's only got about 15 minutes left um in uh this event um so I'll just ask one question um real quick uh and then um and then move on to questions from the audiences I'm sure there are many um so the title of this event is mapping out DMT hyperspace and I want to get your thoughts on to what extent we can actually create a real map of the DMT hyperspace and what that map actually looks like you know like in a physical map we have coordinates right latitude and longitude what were the coordinates of the DMT map look like
(34:58) okay should I begin go ahead um yeah so this is a really interesting question I think the idea of mapping um has been raised by a number of people I think there's there's a little bit of um hyperbole surrounding the idea of mapping I think a lot of people thought that the idea of mapping the DMT space is kind of ridiculous um because it is so complex uh it is so strange it is so variable um so I don't think we're anywhere close to a kind of an Ordnance survey you won't know what that is kind of maybe
(35:36) you will I don't have that in the States but anyway um so you know some kind of Ordinance survey map of the DMT space I think is out of the question but that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of mapping um so one can think about um level mapping for example so um do different levels of intensity of experience reliably take you to different types of spaces is there a um a progression I mean people talk already about you know the moving through the waiting room and the Dome and there's already been developed in a
(36:16) very informal sense uh a certain kind of mapping of the space you know what is the normal procession through the space so I think we have that that's something that we can we can anchor and work with um and and and formalize more and get a better description of the kind of experience one should expect even if there is going to be some stochasticity there and variability between individuals uh but also mapping might also mean um the the kind of the topological or geometric structure of the space I know there are a number
(36:56) of people thinking about that you know can we can we map how the the geometry uh and the topology of the space changes over time can we formalize that can we get a formal description of the different types of the kind of mathematical spatial structure of the space over time um so I think there's a lot we can we can do with mapping and then of course mapping the the entities as well you know the Flora and Fauna of the DNT space um so I think it needs to be worked out what we mean by mapping but I don't
(37:30) think we're completely lost um when it comes to the idea of mapping I think there are many things that we can um many approaches I think we're spoiled for Choice really the number of approaches we can take when it comes to formally describing a much better way than we have now Beyond kind of just kind of trip reports kind of phenomenological verbal trip reports um Daniel spoke about getting actual pictures being drawn of the space you know and so I think yeah I think there are many opportunities there
(38:05) um before we move on to either Chris or Daniel I just want to say to the people online uh please post your questions in the chat uh and I'll read them out um uh later on um Chris go ahead yeah I mean I think that the the idea of mapping is interesting and important because um after doing many of these interviews I've realized that a big part of the experience is determined by cultural factors as you would expect um and much more than people intuitively or naively think when it comes to DMT I think that there's a bit of a trick with
(38:44) the DMT space that it makes you feel that what you're seeing is very fundamental and authentic and um I think people tend to forget quite a bit that our ordinary perception is filled with traps and assumptions about what is real out there um so I think that what the first step to take to try to achieve any form of mapping is to take a rigorous approach to understand these experiences and we have Traditions that can help us in that regard so one tradition is for example the tradition of phenomenology and the
(39:24) phenomenologists uh you know the philosophical tradition of the careful and disciplined examination of experience um and we have other Traditions that are linked to contemplative practices uh I think that this is actually one of the most fruitful possible approaches that I think from phenomenology that we can take here is how do we train individuals to examine their own experiences with a critical perspective so I think what can be derived from that and what is interesting actually for us to understand you know how is this a
(40:01) method for exploration of you know what it means to be alive um is not try to understand so much the contents of the experience but the structures of the experience the forms what are the fundamental properties of how these things come about so you're much more interested in the process rather than in the confidence um and the way to do that I think is fundamentally a relational process so you need you know to have another person an experienced facilitator who have undergone you know all those tricky aspects of examining their own
(40:37) experiences with a critical eye that can help you scaffold your own process of examining your own experience so I think that that's that's kind of like the approach that I think is is more fruitful and that hopefully will get us advanced in in a way to try to understand these experiences a bit better rather than you know over fetishizing certain features of it that seems to be you know almost means down into these cultures so I think yeah I think that would be my general approach when it comes to the idea of
(41:10) mapping experience foreign thanks so much Chris uh Daniel did you have anything you wanted to add on to that yeah I'll just point uh a couple of things that are a little different I agree with everything that um Chris and Andrew were saying um we've noticed that there's like uh like levels maybe what what Andrew was saying what I would put them under would be like personal biographical material and then what we would have is like the collective unconscious or dreamlike material which you know archetypal
(41:40) uncultural then there appears to be like a like a level beyond that which might be uh considered transpersonal or you could use like there's different religious models that might come into play here and then possibly like multi what would you call them like the Multiverse or multiple realities or just this very bizarre alien landscape that's not human at all um another way I would consider mapping it is temporal like past present and future like is the content about the past is it about like what's happening
(42:12) in the world today or is it like future oriented or like Vision or prophecy or like high technology science fiction type oriented would be another way I would look at it and then also like how fast time goes is it like personal like scales that are human or is it scales that are like geological and like Universal you know like witnessing the big bang and the creation of of galaxies and things like that um and then Chris I think you're you're pointing something really important is like mapping like healthy responses like
(42:46) clinically healthy responses to these experiences versus um what we would call unhealthy or diluted responses to the this medicine because I you know we get a lot of emails from people who use a lot of DMT and some of which I would say are expressing like unhealthy um Expeditions and overuse and you know like learning how to distinguish from like a real transpersonal phenomenon and something that is diluted or fantasy um and these are things that live work in the realm of like psychology and clinical applications of assessment you
(43:20) know so those would be areas that I would I would explore fantastic thanks so much Daniel um I'll ask just one more question because I can't resist um I'm I'm curious whether you guys think that it's possible to form uh relationships with uh the entities in the DMT space in other words the more time that you spend in DMT hyperspace can you actually get to know the entities deeper and in the process can you actually gain a greater self-knowledge to the extent that those entities are just reflections of your
(43:50) own consciousness um well apparently so I I I've been in contact with quite a few people over the years who contact me and who I've people who are very experienced with DMT um particularly now people are using these uh vape pens um which is kind of a very crude dmtx and that you can actually control the level experience you know without having glass pipes and naked flames you can actually maintain yourself kind of within the space over time and I've I've had reports from people that they that
(44:30) over many months of using DMT regularly they are able to regularly make contact and meet and indeed develop a relationship with with certain entities and you know I believe them I have no reason to distrust that so it certainly seems possible it doesn't seem if you go in there with some kind of intent to to meet a certain entity and if you're familiar with that entity that it does seem possible that you can encounter that particular entity over time which is uh remarkable really because as you say you know it could be
(45:08) if you can establish some kind of two-way communication you might be able to Garner information about perhaps yourself but also perhaps their world I mean it's kind of it's uh it's almost unfathomable that we could you could develop this relationship with this this entity who you can then extract information or that's maybe the wrong word it sounds a bit closient Colonial list but um that you could actually really how develop some kind of two-way communicative relationships such as you can ask them questions about that the
(45:47) origin of their space you know we can't assume that it is just a reflection of the self these the sort of questions we can we can deal with if we can do that so I think that's really important actually aspect of this it's not just about mapping the space and kind of looking around uh in a but actually working more like an anthropologist um than just an Explorer and that you are actually getting to know the beings within the space and learning about their culture so to speak their hyper-dimensional culture and and where
(46:22) they came from and what they are and what they do and what it means you know that to me is a really important uh approach um it seems a much more natural approach for humans who are very communicative you know social beings we like to talk to other beings to get information so I think that's a really important approach that we can take with with DMT I think yeah I mean just I think uh just to compliment that I I think that if one looks into actually the anthropological literature of uh Amazonian cultures um whether whether it's mestizo or
(47:03) indigenous ones uh you'll find that you know Ayahuasca users especially shamans to develop stable relationships with you know the spirits that they encounter and the plants that they are attached to um and how there's a there's there's a clear relationship that is cultivated in that for the skillful use of certain medicines attached to those plants so I think I mean to your question Kenneth I think there is whether or not it's possible I think the anthropological literature suggests that it happens
(47:43) what I think is crucially different in that context from the psychonatic Western context is that the cosmology is kind of um supports that sort of cultivation of those relationships in these Amazonian cultures we've given extended forms of DMT to individuals on repeated occasions up to four occasions and we don't see the stability of these entities or these beings and again I'm not making any assumption here about the ontology of these beings and you're seeing their experiences um so we don't see a stability of them
(48:20) you know recurring the same entity or the same feature and it could be that with the right cultural priming uh for example a strong Cosmo Vision about you know entity X Y or Z then there could be some form of stabilization of that entity when the experiences are happening and that these relationships can be cultivated and that these relationships can be meaningful for the individual so I think it's a very context dependent thing whether or not these things are possible yeah Daniel did you have anything you wanted
(49:00) to add on to that yeah I've heard a story similar to what Chris is saying even at um Ayahuasca practitioner of having even a second life and a second family you know and a lot of people report back and have feeling um connected to their ancestors you know so these you know some of these entities might not be completely random but somehow connected to us if you believe in um that particular worldview and I I have had multiple experiences with the same entities that have come to talk to me and they speak in color and flashing
(49:34) lights and point the way you know somebody mentioned in the thing that their their guides they show us how to step into these inner spaces and I would love to have like a longer conversation in just a few minutes with that and sometimes the symbols that they share some of the visual symbols are Clues to personal processes and that I you know I've worked with and don't show up um for years and years later I don't understand why that particular symbol showed up for years I think of the dmtx ideas like a us like
(50:06) a foreign student Exchange program you're able to immerse yourself in another culture and hopefully it'll be stabilized long enough that you just don't like the channel just doesn't change over and over again and that you're able to have a ongoing relationship I think that's actually really possible in these spaces amazing thanks so much um so we'll take just two questions from online uh and then two questions from the in-person audience we are already a bit over time so Chris if you do need to
(50:36) head out um let me know um but hopefully what we can take about like maybe 15 minutes of questions from the audience um so the first one is from Adam he says the BMT experience feels like it comes from outside itself uh what is the reason for this questions so uh there's there could be many reasons why why it feels outside the cell and I think if you want to be very cynical about it you can give a very reductionistic explanation so uh so we see that there's a strong dysregulation of normal brain activity
(51:13) uh in the frontal cortex and we know that certain metacognitive capacities so the ability to be aware of our own thoughts or what is real and not real can be compromised if you will under a certain extent so I think from a reductionistic approach I'm not saying I have that approach I'm just saying that you know it's a possibility it could be that it feels real because her ability to determine what is real and not real is fairly compromised and uh there's not just this you know biological explanation there's also the
(51:51) fundamental logical explanation a lot of people have strong insights in these experiences which are not necessarily real and that upon further examination in fact do seem that you know they don't make much sense so it could be that the alternative explanation you know I'll leave it for for maybe others to to contribute to it okay so I guess you mean me [Laughter] um yeah so okay um so I think sure this reality testing is very is very difficult and and complicated and certainly I mean even in the dream state
(52:35) um this this frontal deactivation uh is present so you don't normally recognize that the dream state is a dream unless you are Lucid dreamer where you can kind of reactivate and you see this kind of thing also in schizophrenia where people hear voices and there is there seems to be an issue with the attribution of that voice that you would normally attribute to yourself because of this disconnectivity between the frontal and other parts of the brain um there is obviously you know the extremely alien nature of the experience the intensity
(53:10) the clarity all of these things the fact that it does seem to bear no relationship whatsoever to normal waking reality all of it makes it seem extremely alien which can contribute to that maybe and whether that means it truly is alien is a different matter um one thing I would say is that what you see with with dreamers is when when dreamers wake up they accept fully that it was just a dream and like likewise when schizophrenics are treated um when they they kind of they recover from their delusive delusionary thought
(53:50) process they again accept that the voice in their head was just them you know it wasn't real um what's striking I think about DMT is that even after the trip is over and you come down from the experience people are still utterly 100 convinced even though they know they took a drug they took a powerful psychedelic drug they they still remain completely convinced that this was not just so they have all of their reality testing faculties reconstructed and yet they will still tell you there's no way that this was
(54:28) just a hallucination or just a product of their own mind what do you make of that um I don't know but I I think it's quite interesting um that people are unwilling to accept oh that it was just uh that it was just some kind of dream process or just some kind of hallucination so I think there is there is there are still kind of pockets of the um the inexplicable that remain uh even uh after accounting for all of these aberrant and disorganized and all that uh neurological processes yeah I just I just want to come back sorry for urugues
(55:10) we've been like I actually wanted to copy what you said Andrew with the fact that um actually it's quite interesting because if you look at the at the model supported by the evidence around psychedelic action and we see that with DMT as well it seems that there is a part that has to do with a deconstruction of all these crystallized models of the world that we have constructed throughout our adulthood and uh and I actually think that there is room to put forward the hypothesis that there is some form of fundamental state of
(55:46) being that is somehow activated in these experiences very intense secondary experiences and certainly DMT experiences and um my my kind of like initial guess around why it feels so real is because it feels authentic the the experience has a form of Elementary feeling to it that is also geysed up many times in deceiving ways so that that would be my kind of like mixed also uh approach to that answer I guess maybe just add a few more pieces you know I've thought about this a lot and I think the brain is trying to perceive
(56:33) something more than four-dimensional you know and it can get a little unruly but I believe it's pointing to um this awareness of perception of more than four dimensions and I think by definition that makes it feel more real than real because what we experience as real is you know four-dimensional space and so I think there's you know like the brain is trying to wrap its head around something that it's hard for us to comprehend in a normal State um the other thing what Chris was pointing to it's like it feels familiar
(57:03) like uh there's something about it that it's more of a remembering than it is like an uncovering something new sometimes for a lot of people and so it's like returning to a place that you were before or you know or where you're gonna go when you die or where we were before we were born you know I'm not quite sure what that is but uh but if feels familiar and it's more of a remembering and I think that's what makes it feel more real and then you know the other thing that you know that
(57:31) the the caution of the more real than real doesn't mean it's true and I think you know Chris is pointing to that too in that like you know there are people who are psychotic that truly believe their their worldview is is very real um but it doesn't connect with consensus reality or other people's ability to understand it and Rick Strassman talked to me about this like when you experience a DNT State and you might be narcissistic and you believe you're the you know you're the peak of the world
(58:01) and the best that all things you know um that there's a lot of damage that can be done of somebody who really believes in their delusion you know so so it's it's I think it's really important to work with healthy people and also to check them when they come back and and you know like do the reality testing and and like and push their edges a little bit with what um Andrew was saying about like they really believe it happened you know and I think that's I don't we don't want to Discount that but we want to
(58:29) check it you know as much as we can so so those are my thoughts on that one for sure thanks so much all great great answers um this next one is a pretty quick one uh are there any plans to contact high-level Buddhist Meditation Masters that can be injected with DMT in other words enrolling meditate meditation Masters in dmtx you can speak to that briefly but you know we do want to work with you know not just Buddhist practitioners but other religious practitioners as well and that will be something that we'll
(59:02) step into as we get further along into the program but you know naropa University is here and there's a lot of Buddhist practitioners in this area but that would be the idea is Multicultural um spiritual practitioners so people who have like contemplative practices from multiple Traditions would be what I would like to do with it yeah on our end we're we're also working in a similar sort of Direction um precisely because again uh you know very experienced meditators have the capacity to talk about their experience
(59:34) at length and have a capacity to maintain a form of awareness in these extreme states they have a training of sorts uh which I guess you could argue that Psychonauts many times may have the only difference is that we know we don't have uh schools of practices of thousands of years of Psychonauts so it's it's I think it's very interesting to to go to very experienced police practitioners and I am particularly interested not just in DMT for that but also fighting the foxy DMT for that for that purpose because of
(1:00:07) the similarities between these non-dual states and these experiences of unity and nothingness that 5meo induces great um we'll now take a couple of questions from the audience unless Andrew did you want to chime in on that last question or no okay um so uh if you're if you have a question from the in-person audience could you just please come up to the laptop um so that everybody online can hear your questions so Chris if you want to just pick a couple people raising their hands over there sure I also have to leave but um okay
(1:00:42) we'll just we'll just do one question then one question no no you guys should keep uh don't uh don't mind me uh there you go um so you mentioned five new thoughts too and I was just really curious because obviously it's something that you can help is that something so kind of like how Angie mentioned where you could maybe like Infuse it for a longer period of time is that any research that you've seen anyone do maybe at the like Imperial Maybe a fiber meal X yeah no we're we're not uh I think it's it's
(1:01:19) too early to to think of something like that I mean I don't know it could be done it's just I think the safety profile the 5mm DMT is still not uh as well researched as the one from BMT what do you think would happen um because obviously the effects if you had to predict what would happen to someone well it depends on the dose it depends on on the the level of of that extreme but I would be kind of afraid to extend it too much but I think we do have you know methods of administration that could maybe to a
(1:01:51) certain extent uh prolongation which is international Administration for example or intramuscular Administration uh any control contexts it appears to be fairly safe although there is some data suggesting that you know these five mere experiences when they're strong they can be you know they can be challenging so so I think maybe but you know further along the line that's very cool thank you okay Mike came up oh so hopefully they have that yes yeah that all came through loud and clear uh online um so I know Chris has got to go uh and
(1:02:32) I'm sure Andrew's itching to get some sleep um so I think we'll end the event here even though I have probably 10 hours worth of questions that I could ask the three of you um so thank you so much again uh for joining us for this event I'd love to do another Edition where we can dive deeper into into coming up with these Maps um thank you so so much guys thank you very much thank you thanks everybody thank you
Mapping Out The DMT Hyperspace - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyXp7thv00
Transcript:
(00:00) okay great um let's get started um thank you so much everybody for joining us uh both in person at Oxford uh and online here on Zoom um I have a bit of a shoddy internet connection so I apologize if it goes awry we've got a truly International crowd today so uh Chris Timmerman is uh joining the audience in person at Oxford uh Daniel McQueen is calling in from Colorado uh and Andrew Gallimore is calling in from Okinawa Japan uh where it is currently 4 30 a.
(00:35) m sorry from Tokyo from Tokyo um where it's for 4 30 in the morning so Andrew you're a real trooper um thank you so much for joining us um so this is uh mapping out DMT hyperspace um we are very lucky to be joined today by three incredible speakers uh Andrew galmore Chris Timberman and Daniel McQueen will be speaking in that order uh let me just introduce the three speakers very briefly uh Dr Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist pharmacologist chemiston writer who's been interested in the
(01:07) neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is an author of a number of Articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug DMT and its effects on the brain and Consciousness we recently collaborated with DNT Pioneer Dr Rick Strassman author of DMT The Spirit Molecule to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended Journeys in DMT space also known as dmtx his current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gaining access to extra-dimensional realities
(01:36) and how this can be understood in terms of the Neuroscience of information he currently lives and works in Japan next Chris Timmerman obtained a BSC in Psychology in Santiago Chile and an MSC in cognitive neuroscience at the University of Bologna in Italy he is based at Imperial College London at the center for psychedelic research where he led near Imaging research on the effects of the potent psychedelic DMT in the human brain and Consciousness his work focuses on the Neuroscience psychology beliefs and ethics of the Psychedelic
(02:04) experience and finally last but not least Daniel McQueen is a psychedelic specialist psychedelic therapy educator activist and author of the book psychedelic cannabis in 2012 he co-founded the center of medicinal mindfulness which is the first legal plant-based psychedelic Therapy Center in the United States Daniel specializes in using cannabis assisted psychedelic therapy and ketamine assisted psychedelic therapy as tools for transformation and healing his work with psychedelic cannabis has created a widespread movement of
(02:32) practitioners across the U.S and Canada in 2016 to test his own activist edges Daniel initiated the dmtx research and exploration program to implement a new Extended State DMT Administration protocol that was designed by Dr Andrew Gallimore and Dr Rick Strassman most recently with the team of naropa aligned psychedelic Advocates Daniel helped found the non-profit medicinal mindfulness Center for psychedelics spirituality and sustainability to focus on the use of psychedelics and ethical professional settings for healing and to
(03:00) help transform the global climate crisis so truly an All-Star team thank you the three of us for joining um so the event is going to consist of three 15-minute presentations from Andrew Chris and then Daniel and then we'll launch into a moderated q a and finally some questions from the audience and will aim to be done by 9 pm UK time so Andrew without further Ado I'll let you take it away yep yep okay okay good morning everybody um thanks for coming um Okay so I get I will talk briefly about um I guess the origins a little bit of
(03:42) um dmtx and why I'm particularly uh interested in in DMT and what I see is the um the potential use cases for DMT which might differ from Chris's but we will we will see um so first of all is that not working oh there we go obligatory plugs please do go to my website if you want to see everything that I write about and talk about and all that kind of stuff the building alienworlds.
(04:17) com uh also please do buy my new book reality switch Technologies recommended by Hamilton Morris hey who else um and or my first book as well uh Alien information Theory which is also excellent not recommended by Hamilton Morris um so DMT um for me is interesting more than interesting it is astonishingly remarkably fascinating for me and has been for uh at least a couple of decades um and is what what kind of prompted me to think about uh or to inspire dmtx originally back in sort of 2015.
(05:05) um whilst we've learned largely um owing to the work of the Imperial College team and others we know a lot more about DMT now and how it works in the brain there's still uh um uh quite a lot I would say about dmt's phenomenology that we still do not understand and that we still struggle to explain uh and I would dare say quite a lot that we that remains somewhat confounding even as a neuroscientist I find the the complexity and the content and the structure of the DMT space to be utterly confounding and I don't think it
(05:52) is straightforward to explain it um so extended sojourns within the DMT space certainly can have a lot of value there um um and of course you're all familiar I think with the the the phenomenology of the DMT space this inordinate complexity it's hyper technological space that appears to contain more spatial Dimensions than than our three plus one dimensional Universe the presence of these extremely powerful and a seemingly hyper intelligent beings um the the Lucidity the efficiency and the clarity of the space is is is quite
(06:36) remarkable um uh and of course that that old question that everyone asks when when you talk about DMT is it real sort of the ontological question I think is for me at least an extremely interesting one perhaps the central question we all want to know the answer to Is it real whatever real might mean and perhaps we can talk about that um so I think we have three basic broad interpretations of the DMT space we can we can call it some kind of hallucination that would be your Orthodox default position it is a pure
(07:13) wild fabrication of the human brain um Perhaps it is um some kind of unconscious structures bubbling up from the collective psyche um in a sort of jungian sense that has some merits as well or shifting to the much more um unorthodox slightly more far out explanations which I tend to um reach into sometimes to uh some criticism but whatever the idea that we might in fact be dealing with some kind of intelligent some kind of non-human discard alien dare we say intelligence from some other external reality these are
(08:01) unanswered questions um so the problem with DMT of course is that it is a very brief trip you you're hurtled into this extremely bizarre realm and disoriented shocked horrified appalled um you have a chance to look around wide-eyed for three minutes four minutes maybe Max at the peak um and then you are dragged back into the consensus world again so it is not a the standard smoking or bolus administration of DMT is not amenable to more detailed analysis and exploration and we say mapping which is what we're going to
(08:50) talk about today so the idea that we might be able to extend the experience by using this technology Illustrated here from anesthesiology came to me back in in in in 2015 the the idea of delivering DMT with this slowest sustained drip is certainly not my idea originally um other people have used similar Technologies but I think um what um myself and Rick Strassman were able to bring to the table was the idea of using a pharmacokinetic model using the technology from um anesthesiology what's called Target controlled intravenous infusion or TCI
(09:44) to actually maintain a stable brain concentration so you're not merely delivering a um an infusion but you're actually delivering a programmed infusion informed by a pharmacokinetic model such that you can maintain a stable brain DMT concentration over time so you can induce somebody into the DMT State and hold them there at a stable level rather than having the levels fluctuate or based upon chance or guesswork so the the target controlled intervenous infusion technology relies upon this this pharmacokinetic model and that
(10:28) takes account of the um the distribution and metabolism and excretion elimination of the drug over time so as to maintain this stable brain concentration uh and I know that Chris Timmerman and collaborators have been able to much improve upon this proof of principle model that myself and uh Rick Strassman uh developed um so so what originally prompted me to um to uh to believe that DMT was amenable to this technology was it's its unique uh pharmacological peculiarities that make it almost almost as if it was designed to be used in this way and that
(11:25) it has this very rapid but brief clinical or subjective effects and as Rick Strassman was able to demonstrate in the in the 90s that it doesn't have a behavioral tolerance so you can inject somebody with DMT and and they will have a certain intensity of effect she was able to measure and then inject them 30 minutes later they would have exactly the same intensity of effects so this is a a really important Discovery by by Rick Strassman um which meant to me having as I was reading his papers that it would make
(12:04) DMT amenable to this kind of um technology um so so I wrote to Rick um back in sometime in 2015 and asked for his blood data hoped that he would still have this Blood data which fortunately he did um and that allowed me to construct this this preliminary proof of principle model which we then published um in 2016 and which I think it's fair to say peaked a lot of people's interest in in this and it's it's kind of remarkable to me and very nice to see that um in the seven years since this paper has
(12:54) been published now almost um it's it's garnered a lot of attention and and inspired a lot of people and we're actually now it's kind of amazing we have two people here also talking who are actually um implementing this technology um some for more academic and some more academic side the established Proper University so to speak at Imperial and then perhaps closer to my original Vision the kind of the the non-academic um the more exploratory size so it's we have a nice balance there which is cool
(13:30) and no doubt there will be other groups who appear in the in the coming years uh also developing their own version of dmtx um so yeah so the idea is that now this initial roller coaster entry phase which is normally the extent of the DMT experience after the bolus injection you can push past that and enter what I would call in orientation phase where the individual is able to kind of Orient themselves within the DMT space and then it was my hope my my prediction am I well mainly My Hope um that the state would actually
(14:17) stabilize over time that the the the subject the Tripper the junior uh would actually be able to fully Orient themselves and remain stable within the state which would then open up the space for uh more detailed exploration to mapping and perhaps even to experiments and that kind of thing and I think hopefully that's something that's been borne out with with the Imperial teams experiments maybe Chris will talk about that um so what do we do with with dmtx um finally um the obviously there are the more kind of
(14:55) prosaic applications of dmtx so you know the clinical applications which aren't in which certainly aren't insignificant and could be quite important I think because you can um control the level of the experience bring people in bring them out and kind of allow um kind of multiple integration periods within the same trip you know pushing them a little bit further dealing with some kind of uh unconscious material that kind of thing then bring them out to actually discuss that so I think it has many advantages perhaps over just
(15:31) giving someone you know psilocybin or LSD or whatever and then kind of riding out over several hours the trip so but also of course for me personally I'm I'm more interested in the phenomenology of the state um and I think there are two broad questions which we we might get to talk about today obviously this is the mapping one um in in quotation marks here in um I think there are many ways we can interpret the word mapping and that's obviously something we're going to talk about today so mapping of the space and
(16:05) also the occupancy The Entity experiences these are some of the most interesting aspects who you meet in the DMT space I think many people people are particularly interested in and then then we have questions of ontological testing so is it real and I think there are two broad ways that you might look at that and one is to actually test in some way the DMT Space by the brain um and also testing the entities themselves um so testing the the space what I mean here is a breaking Convention of three years ago I spoke about this idea of whether the
(16:49) DMT world could be thought of as a sensed world or as a dreamt world so a sensed world is one that is constrained and um um constrained by sensory information um sensed worlds are not magical worlds they have certain properties so the normal waking world has certain properties uh it has has stability it has consistency it has predictability uh and um Jeff Hawkins theoretical neuroscientist spelled that wrong sorry um says predictability is the very definition of reality so we might be able to actually judge the reality the
(17:30) ontology of the DMT space not by kind of having to kind of reach out into the space and actually test the beings or whatever but actually look at how the brain is constructing it and that might tell us whether it's a world that's being actively modulated actively constrained by some kind of sensory information from outside the brain reverses a purely dreamed world or a purely hallucinated world so I think there's a lot of the the DMT space might be amenable to testing in that way without having to
(18:02) actually um reach out into the space and then of course um for many years people have thought about how we might test the entities to determine whether or not they are real so to speak and we can think of tasks or that we might give them people have thought about giving them mathematical problems finding the unique prime factors of very large numbers something that a human brain couldn't do during the trip or any time really and that these beings if they truly are at you know hyper intelligences they might be able to to achieve there aren't
(18:42) this is obviously there are issues with this kind of uh tests um but also you might ask the entities to provide information that cannot be known by the subject this kind of thing um okay so I think how I'm going to be speaking I think that's enough for me um so I will finish there and so we have a lot more to discuss then so thank you very much great thank you so much Andrew um we'll now switch over to Chris uh who is live in Oxford um and now we will go to uh Daniel McQueen for the third and final
(19:21) presentation hey everybody how's my volume I think you're I think you're you're good all right great uh well thanks for having me and uh Chris congratulations on the um on being able to do the Expeditions that's really wonderful uh it's inspiring to be part of this program and uh and being inspired by uh you both Andrew it's great seeing you here as well um I have a short presentation I'd like to share with you all so I just a name that I'm coming from a completely different orientation as a psychedelic
(19:57) guide and facilitator I'm here in Boulder Colorado and I was uh I learned about Extended State DMT through Rick Strassman who sent us who sent me the um paper that he and Andrew wrote in 2016 and then I gave a presentation on the subject just here you know the topic uh as a is something that really inspired me when we did a presentation uh called psychedelic shine here in Boulder where we had Dennis McKinnon come to speak as well so and then after that people started to ask me well what would it take to do this we should try to do this
(20:32) so I started to explore what it would actually take so I'm coming from a foundation of stepping out of the research space and into a realm of possibly designing Retreat experiences and intensive experiences for a different populations and communities so let me share my screen here and we'll just um hold on just a second we'll just hop right into it can you all see that okay here we go this looks normal okay so if you're interested in learning more about my program where the where the um where the one of the first psychedelic
(21:15) therapy centers in the United States working in a legal setting we work with cannabis as a psychedelic and ketamine and proposition 122 just passed here in Colorado and so now psilocybin and DMT are legal for personal use and we'll be stepping into regulated uh a regulated model in the next few years so we're going to start working with psilocybin in DMT in a clinical Community setting um and so I'd like to invite you to explore cannabis as a psychedelic because there's a lot of similarities
(21:46) between a strong uh cannabis experience and an extended state trip very similar to Ayahuasca and psilocybin um one of our primary partners that I'd like to recommend checking out is new nautics and Andrew I believe you're on the board of advisors now with mnotics and Egon ehrenberg's group so so this is a community to help us with the non-profit side of the word and then our program is called dreamline technology Expeditions we actually created a company to handle all the back end Logistics of this work so and Andrew
(22:23) came up with the concept of the name dmtx we worked together to play with the name what we call an extended state DNC and I know there's other names for it as well um so one of the primary differences of our program and what Chris is doing is that we work within a multi-paradigm approach where we acknowledge and and foundation and scientific inquiry but we also honor the spiritual and the existential Dimensions the transpersonal dimensions of this work we work with a lot of indigenous practitioners and other
(22:59) spiritual practitioners and then most of our team comes from a grounded clinical background so psychological safety and exploration is really important to us and then honoring the community aspects of DMT and other psychedelic medicines the creativity and Aesthetics so we do a lot of art around this work and we honor we want to bring in more music as a as a facilitator's tool to this and and I put on here this mirrors the primary missions of our particular program and that we want to work not only do we want
(23:34) to just explore this space I think Chris is taking the lead on on the logistics and the safety and all of that piece and once that's dialed in we want to put scientists through this experiment and see what that does to their psyche and their brain and maybe it can help them come up with a big solutions to world problems another idea we want to do is bring in a spiritual and religious practitioners and teachers so creating like community events around this where people can come together I have a shared Vision or intention have
(24:14) an experience a shared experience with extended state DMT and then come back and speak to it and maybe something phenomenal will come out of that um so here's our current team and I'm going to share a little bit about what we've done over the last few years but myself and Carla Dr Clemens is our co-facilitators we do have a medical team comprising of anesthesiologists and medical doctors and nurses we have a clinical team with psychologists and a lot of art therapists licensed professional counselors this is to
(24:47) ensure that people are landing well and have the support they need afterwards and then we have a technical team we're also interested in EEG work thinking that maybe we might be able to stabilize it in different ways than what Chris is saying um and we're also bringing an art an art artist a sketch artist so that they can have the experiences described to them and actually jot it down and try to create some images around this um and right now we have a cohort of of a dmtx Psychonauts that we've been
(25:21) training with over the last few years one of the things really quick set is like comparing the the typical modern DMT experience and and what he like called Visionary States um you know using ancient Judaism as a as a model was that there was a lot more um stability and meaning in the people who had um who had mindfulness practices and so we're con we're actively engaging in practicing different mindfulness techniques to help bring in stability to these these Extended State experiences um and then Andrew mentioned just
(26:01) alluded to this so I just went ahead and added this slide that we think that there might be different applications for different levels of DMT stabilization from like on the lower end from like clinical disorders and physiological disorders uh that could you know maybe DMT infusions could help then there's like these a little bit higher level of creative psycholytic levels of therapeutic or aren't enhancing then there's like the Ayahuasca levels and then a dual awareness space where you're kind of
(26:29) you're it looks it sounds like what Chris was doing was they're able to communicate through the uh Journey um and give feedback in the present moment and then what we would call like the Breakthrough state where a person was was probably non-responsive but going into a full DMT experience for an extended period of time how long someone can do this you know like is going to be an interesting question I just I know from experience that people's bladders start talking to them about an hour and a half you know
(26:58) so we're wondering you know about like just the physical um um limitations of of being in these states and then and then we think that there's probably an upper limit of just usability that there might not be like you know like just to not take too much otherwise it would just become too fragmented and disconnected and confusing um and this is what I believe you know this is now an ancient alchemical uh image which I think I've seen on Andrew used before in the past but like there's this normal reality that we're all part
(27:33) of that's three-dimensional plus time and then there it does appear to be this ability with the use of DMT as a technology to um start like our brains attempting to perceive higher dimensional states of reality that may be populated by something that's objectively um unique and different than us not interconnected with us but maybe something more than us so that's the big question that we're all curious about and then you know again we love art and uh and so we created these astronaut psychonaut badges you know that we give
(28:09) to our team members and things you know just to bring in community and play and uh creativity into these programs and then and Andrew shared an older version of this image but you know like eventually like creating some sort of DMT manual you know space technology and DMT technology is really interrelated so I keep playing with this idea of like when SpaceX goes to Mars you know what are they going to do for taking a break from that little pod you know maybe maybe Extended State DMT can go to Mars with the with the astronauts at some
(28:40) point in their future maybe 50 or 100 years who knows um and and then um let's see so what have I been doing these last few years while you all been working on your projects uh we did it we've done a series of psychonaut training uh Retreats and Expeditions using legal medicines here in Colorado and so the first one we did we had a community you know we have these communities are about you know 20 person groups we work with cannabis uh cannabis and breath work and then we actually participated in a Peyote ceremony as a community
(29:13) and the intention was to you know prepare ourselves psychically so to speak spiritually mentally physically for Extended State DMT experiences um then we did another one the next year in added ketamine experiences and I've been working with a lot Academy a bit with clients and working with it myself as well and I'm starting to see the connections with ketamine and DMT and how to navigate these really deep spaces that are very altered um in DMT X3 um we went online and worked with cannabis and breath work again because
(29:51) we were supposed to go to Costa Rica and this was right we were planning this right as covet was happening and uh and Costa Rica was supposed to be our first DMT related experiences with Ayahuasca analogs and smoke smoke DNT junga and that got canceled so we went online instead and then the mtx4 um is going to happen this year in Colorado we were set to go to Jamaica so we had set it up we were getting the medicine imported I don't want to go into the details of all of that but um you know we have a legal team and we
(30:28) were having the medicine imported for um DMT experiences in Jamaica because it was legal there that got postponed because um our offices got flooded we had this weird climate change related event here in Colorado it was like a really significant storm and it flooded our offices and it and it derailed our program for about a month and at that same time I realized that proposition 122 was going to be voted on so we paused the trip realizing that maybe we could just bring the dntx program to Colorado and so proposition 122 passed
(31:07) and we're going to do our first real you know full DMT Retreat using smoke DMT this summer here in Colorado First legal DMT retreat in the United States possibly and then we're starting to uh we're going to start a series of expedition Retreats using smoke DMT while we figure out the regulated model and bringing in synthetic DMT for the extended state DNT experience and that's gonna you know that's that'll be happen you know the next few years is is kind of the intention there um so here here what we were thinking
(31:47) this was our Costa Rica Expedition well that didn't happen but we were going to work out of these little pod rooms um that were really nice um uh different set and setting set up music and things uh and have a really nice contained space and that this is what it would um this would be the setup for something like this so what Chris has done you know something that we hope to do and to have co-guides medical direct medical doctor and a nurse a lot of equipment in the room but a lot of support as well where they and and also you know like
(32:22) initially doing it with intentionality meditation and depending on the client or the or the psycho not possibly prayer as well within beautiful meditation altar in the middle in front of the Psychonauts so they could see something pretty that was nice to them before they go into the Expedition and then the long-term goal to make it more affordable um and to to explore with group [Music] um group Expeditions is that create a larger room with up you know four Psychonauts going about the same time with kind of a station in the middle for
(33:00) the medical staff but away from the visual um view of the of the Psychonauts each one having sitter and guides and and then having like a again like a different technology in the room for monitoring safety and possibly even documenting you know with video and film and then after people would come out of the journey experiences they would go directly to assessment experts and integration therapists um and uh maybe even the sketch artist you know to share their experiences as well so um so that's about where we're at like
(33:41) we're right on the next few months we'll be doing our first DMT Journey Expeditions and and hopefully that will you know build from there to be able to offer Extended State DMT when um you know again the laws on the regulations kind of catch up to us here in Colorado so um so that's that's what I have to share for you all thank you so much Daniel um absolutely fantastic talk um so we are now um at uh it's now 8 45.
(34:19) it's only got about 15 minutes left um in uh this event um so I'll just ask one question um real quick uh and then um and then move on to questions from the audiences I'm sure there are many um so the title of this event is mapping out DMT hyperspace and I want to get your thoughts on to what extent we can actually create a real map of the DMT hyperspace and what that map actually looks like you know like in a physical map we have coordinates right latitude and longitude what were the coordinates of the DMT map look like
(34:58) okay should I begin go ahead um yeah so this is a really interesting question I think the idea of mapping um has been raised by a number of people I think there's there's a little bit of um hyperbole surrounding the idea of mapping I think a lot of people thought that the idea of mapping the DMT space is kind of ridiculous um because it is so complex uh it is so strange it is so variable um so I don't think we're anywhere close to a kind of an Ordnance survey you won't know what that is kind of maybe
(35:36) you will I don't have that in the States but anyway um so you know some kind of Ordinance survey map of the DMT space I think is out of the question but that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of mapping um so one can think about um level mapping for example so um do different levels of intensity of experience reliably take you to different types of spaces is there a um a progression I mean people talk already about you know the moving through the waiting room and the Dome and there's already been developed in a
(36:16) very informal sense uh a certain kind of mapping of the space you know what is the normal procession through the space so I think we have that that's something that we can we can anchor and work with um and and and formalize more and get a better description of the kind of experience one should expect even if there is going to be some stochasticity there and variability between individuals uh but also mapping might also mean um the the kind of the topological or geometric structure of the space I know there are a number
(36:56) of people thinking about that you know can we can we map how the the geometry uh and the topology of the space changes over time can we formalize that can we get a formal description of the different types of the kind of mathematical spatial structure of the space over time um so I think there's a lot we can we can do with mapping and then of course mapping the the entities as well you know the Flora and Fauna of the DNT space um so I think it needs to be worked out what we mean by mapping but I don't
(37:30) think we're completely lost um when it comes to the idea of mapping I think there are many things that we can um many approaches I think we're spoiled for Choice really the number of approaches we can take when it comes to formally describing a much better way than we have now Beyond kind of just kind of trip reports kind of phenomenological verbal trip reports um Daniel spoke about getting actual pictures being drawn of the space you know and so I think yeah I think there are many opportunities there
(38:05) um before we move on to either Chris or Daniel I just want to say to the people online uh please post your questions in the chat uh and I'll read them out um uh later on um Chris go ahead yeah I mean I think that the the idea of mapping is interesting and important because um after doing many of these interviews I've realized that a big part of the experience is determined by cultural factors as you would expect um and much more than people intuitively or naively think when it comes to DMT I think that there's a bit of a trick with
(38:44) the DMT space that it makes you feel that what you're seeing is very fundamental and authentic and um I think people tend to forget quite a bit that our ordinary perception is filled with traps and assumptions about what is real out there um so I think that what the first step to take to try to achieve any form of mapping is to take a rigorous approach to understand these experiences and we have Traditions that can help us in that regard so one tradition is for example the tradition of phenomenology and the
(39:24) phenomenologists uh you know the philosophical tradition of the careful and disciplined examination of experience um and we have other Traditions that are linked to contemplative practices uh I think that this is actually one of the most fruitful possible approaches that I think from phenomenology that we can take here is how do we train individuals to examine their own experiences with a critical perspective so I think what can be derived from that and what is interesting actually for us to understand you know how is this a
(40:01) method for exploration of you know what it means to be alive um is not try to understand so much the contents of the experience but the structures of the experience the forms what are the fundamental properties of how these things come about so you're much more interested in the process rather than in the confidence um and the way to do that I think is fundamentally a relational process so you need you know to have another person an experienced facilitator who have undergone you know all those tricky aspects of examining their own
(40:37) experiences with a critical eye that can help you scaffold your own process of examining your own experience so I think that that's that's kind of like the approach that I think is is more fruitful and that hopefully will get us advanced in in a way to try to understand these experiences a bit better rather than you know over fetishizing certain features of it that seems to be you know almost means down into these cultures so I think yeah I think that would be my general approach when it comes to the idea of
(41:10) mapping experience foreign thanks so much Chris uh Daniel did you have anything you wanted to add on to that yeah I'll just point uh a couple of things that are a little different I agree with everything that um Chris and Andrew were saying um we've noticed that there's like uh like levels maybe what what Andrew was saying what I would put them under would be like personal biographical material and then what we would have is like the collective unconscious or dreamlike material which you know archetypal
(41:40) uncultural then there appears to be like a like a level beyond that which might be uh considered transpersonal or you could use like there's different religious models that might come into play here and then possibly like multi what would you call them like the Multiverse or multiple realities or just this very bizarre alien landscape that's not human at all um another way I would consider mapping it is temporal like past present and future like is the content about the past is it about like what's happening
(42:12) in the world today or is it like future oriented or like Vision or prophecy or like high technology science fiction type oriented would be another way I would look at it and then also like how fast time goes is it like personal like scales that are human or is it scales that are like geological and like Universal you know like witnessing the big bang and the creation of of galaxies and things like that um and then Chris I think you're you're pointing something really important is like mapping like healthy responses like
(42:46) clinically healthy responses to these experiences versus um what we would call unhealthy or diluted responses to the this medicine because I you know we get a lot of emails from people who use a lot of DMT and some of which I would say are expressing like unhealthy um Expeditions and overuse and you know like learning how to distinguish from like a real transpersonal phenomenon and something that is diluted or fantasy um and these are things that live work in the realm of like psychology and clinical applications of assessment you
(43:20) know so those would be areas that I would I would explore fantastic thanks so much Daniel um I'll ask just one more question because I can't resist um I'm I'm curious whether you guys think that it's possible to form uh relationships with uh the entities in the DMT space in other words the more time that you spend in DMT hyperspace can you actually get to know the entities deeper and in the process can you actually gain a greater self-knowledge to the extent that those entities are just reflections of your
(43:50) own consciousness um well apparently so I I I've been in contact with quite a few people over the years who contact me and who I've people who are very experienced with DMT um particularly now people are using these uh vape pens um which is kind of a very crude dmtx and that you can actually control the level experience you know without having glass pipes and naked flames you can actually maintain yourself kind of within the space over time and I've I've had reports from people that they that
(44:30) over many months of using DMT regularly they are able to regularly make contact and meet and indeed develop a relationship with with certain entities and you know I believe them I have no reason to distrust that so it certainly seems possible it doesn't seem if you go in there with some kind of intent to to meet a certain entity and if you're familiar with that entity that it does seem possible that you can encounter that particular entity over time which is uh remarkable really because as you say you know it could be
(45:08) if you can establish some kind of two-way communication you might be able to Garner information about perhaps yourself but also perhaps their world I mean it's kind of it's uh it's almost unfathomable that we could you could develop this relationship with this this entity who you can then extract information or that's maybe the wrong word it sounds a bit closient Colonial list but um that you could actually really how develop some kind of two-way communicative relationships such as you can ask them questions about that the
(45:47) origin of their space you know we can't assume that it is just a reflection of the self these the sort of questions we can we can deal with if we can do that so I think that's really important actually aspect of this it's not just about mapping the space and kind of looking around uh in a but actually working more like an anthropologist um than just an Explorer and that you are actually getting to know the beings within the space and learning about their culture so to speak their hyper-dimensional culture and and where
(46:22) they came from and what they are and what they do and what it means you know that to me is a really important uh approach um it seems a much more natural approach for humans who are very communicative you know social beings we like to talk to other beings to get information so I think that's a really important approach that we can take with with DMT I think yeah I mean just I think uh just to compliment that I I think that if one looks into actually the anthropological literature of uh Amazonian cultures um whether whether it's mestizo or
(47:03) indigenous ones uh you'll find that you know Ayahuasca users especially shamans to develop stable relationships with you know the spirits that they encounter and the plants that they are attached to um and how there's a there's there's a clear relationship that is cultivated in that for the skillful use of certain medicines attached to those plants so I think I mean to your question Kenneth I think there is whether or not it's possible I think the anthropological literature suggests that it happens
(47:43) what I think is crucially different in that context from the psychonatic Western context is that the cosmology is kind of um supports that sort of cultivation of those relationships in these Amazonian cultures we've given extended forms of DMT to individuals on repeated occasions up to four occasions and we don't see the stability of these entities or these beings and again I'm not making any assumption here about the ontology of these beings and you're seeing their experiences um so we don't see a stability of them
(48:20) you know recurring the same entity or the same feature and it could be that with the right cultural priming uh for example a strong Cosmo Vision about you know entity X Y or Z then there could be some form of stabilization of that entity when the experiences are happening and that these relationships can be cultivated and that these relationships can be meaningful for the individual so I think it's a very context dependent thing whether or not these things are possible yeah Daniel did you have anything you wanted
(49:00) to add on to that yeah I've heard a story similar to what Chris is saying even at um Ayahuasca practitioner of having even a second life and a second family you know and a lot of people report back and have feeling um connected to their ancestors you know so these you know some of these entities might not be completely random but somehow connected to us if you believe in um that particular worldview and I I have had multiple experiences with the same entities that have come to talk to me and they speak in color and flashing
(49:34) lights and point the way you know somebody mentioned in the thing that their their guides they show us how to step into these inner spaces and I would love to have like a longer conversation in just a few minutes with that and sometimes the symbols that they share some of the visual symbols are Clues to personal processes and that I you know I've worked with and don't show up um for years and years later I don't understand why that particular symbol showed up for years I think of the dmtx ideas like a us like
(50:06) a foreign student Exchange program you're able to immerse yourself in another culture and hopefully it'll be stabilized long enough that you just don't like the channel just doesn't change over and over again and that you're able to have a ongoing relationship I think that's actually really possible in these spaces amazing thanks so much um so we'll take just two questions from online uh and then two questions from the in-person audience we are already a bit over time so Chris if you do need to
(50:36) head out um let me know um but hopefully what we can take about like maybe 15 minutes of questions from the audience um so the first one is from Adam he says the BMT experience feels like it comes from outside itself uh what is the reason for this questions so uh there's there could be many reasons why why it feels outside the cell and I think if you want to be very cynical about it you can give a very reductionistic explanation so uh so we see that there's a strong dysregulation of normal brain activity
(51:13) uh in the frontal cortex and we know that certain metacognitive capacities so the ability to be aware of our own thoughts or what is real and not real can be compromised if you will under a certain extent so I think from a reductionistic approach I'm not saying I have that approach I'm just saying that you know it's a possibility it could be that it feels real because her ability to determine what is real and not real is fairly compromised and uh there's not just this you know biological explanation there's also the
(51:51) fundamental logical explanation a lot of people have strong insights in these experiences which are not necessarily real and that upon further examination in fact do seem that you know they don't make much sense so it could be that the alternative explanation you know I'll leave it for for maybe others to to contribute to it okay so I guess you mean me [Laughter] um yeah so okay um so I think sure this reality testing is very is very difficult and and complicated and certainly I mean even in the dream state
(52:35) um this this frontal deactivation uh is present so you don't normally recognize that the dream state is a dream unless you are Lucid dreamer where you can kind of reactivate and you see this kind of thing also in schizophrenia where people hear voices and there is there seems to be an issue with the attribution of that voice that you would normally attribute to yourself because of this disconnectivity between the frontal and other parts of the brain um there is obviously you know the extremely alien nature of the experience the intensity
(53:10) the clarity all of these things the fact that it does seem to bear no relationship whatsoever to normal waking reality all of it makes it seem extremely alien which can contribute to that maybe and whether that means it truly is alien is a different matter um one thing I would say is that what you see with with dreamers is when when dreamers wake up they accept fully that it was just a dream and like likewise when schizophrenics are treated um when they they kind of they recover from their delusive delusionary thought
(53:50) process they again accept that the voice in their head was just them you know it wasn't real um what's striking I think about DMT is that even after the trip is over and you come down from the experience people are still utterly 100 convinced even though they know they took a drug they took a powerful psychedelic drug they they still remain completely convinced that this was not just so they have all of their reality testing faculties reconstructed and yet they will still tell you there's no way that this was
(54:28) just a hallucination or just a product of their own mind what do you make of that um I don't know but I I think it's quite interesting um that people are unwilling to accept oh that it was just uh that it was just some kind of dream process or just some kind of hallucination so I think there is there is there are still kind of pockets of the um the inexplicable that remain uh even uh after accounting for all of these aberrant and disorganized and all that uh neurological processes yeah I just I just want to come back sorry for urugues
(55:10) we've been like I actually wanted to copy what you said Andrew with the fact that um actually it's quite interesting because if you look at the at the model supported by the evidence around psychedelic action and we see that with DMT as well it seems that there is a part that has to do with a deconstruction of all these crystallized models of the world that we have constructed throughout our adulthood and uh and I actually think that there is room to put forward the hypothesis that there is some form of fundamental state of
(55:46) being that is somehow activated in these experiences very intense secondary experiences and certainly DMT experiences and um my my kind of like initial guess around why it feels so real is because it feels authentic the the experience has a form of Elementary feeling to it that is also geysed up many times in deceiving ways so that that would be my kind of like mixed also uh approach to that answer I guess maybe just add a few more pieces you know I've thought about this a lot and I think the brain is trying to perceive
(56:33) something more than four-dimensional you know and it can get a little unruly but I believe it's pointing to um this awareness of perception of more than four dimensions and I think by definition that makes it feel more real than real because what we experience as real is you know four-dimensional space and so I think there's you know like the brain is trying to wrap its head around something that it's hard for us to comprehend in a normal State um the other thing what Chris was pointing to it's like it feels familiar
(57:03) like uh there's something about it that it's more of a remembering than it is like an uncovering something new sometimes for a lot of people and so it's like returning to a place that you were before or you know or where you're gonna go when you die or where we were before we were born you know I'm not quite sure what that is but uh but if feels familiar and it's more of a remembering and I think that's what makes it feel more real and then you know the other thing that you know that
(57:31) the the caution of the more real than real doesn't mean it's true and I think you know Chris is pointing to that too in that like you know there are people who are psychotic that truly believe their their worldview is is very real um but it doesn't connect with consensus reality or other people's ability to understand it and Rick Strassman talked to me about this like when you experience a DNT State and you might be narcissistic and you believe you're the you know you're the peak of the world
(58:01) and the best that all things you know um that there's a lot of damage that can be done of somebody who really believes in their delusion you know so so it's it's I think it's really important to work with healthy people and also to check them when they come back and and you know like do the reality testing and and like and push their edges a little bit with what um Andrew was saying about like they really believe it happened you know and I think that's I don't we don't want to Discount that but we want to
(58:29) check it you know as much as we can so so those are my thoughts on that one for sure thanks so much all great great answers um this next one is a pretty quick one uh are there any plans to contact high-level Buddhist Meditation Masters that can be injected with DMT in other words enrolling meditate meditation Masters in dmtx you can speak to that briefly but you know we do want to work with you know not just Buddhist practitioners but other religious practitioners as well and that will be something that we'll
(59:02) step into as we get further along into the program but you know naropa University is here and there's a lot of Buddhist practitioners in this area but that would be the idea is Multicultural um spiritual practitioners so people who have like contemplative practices from multiple Traditions would be what I would like to do with it yeah on our end we're we're also working in a similar sort of Direction um precisely because again uh you know very experienced meditators have the capacity to talk about their experience
(59:34) at length and have a capacity to maintain a form of awareness in these extreme states they have a training of sorts uh which I guess you could argue that Psychonauts many times may have the only difference is that we know we don't have uh schools of practices of thousands of years of Psychonauts so it's it's I think it's very interesting to to go to very experienced police practitioners and I am particularly interested not just in DMT for that but also fighting the foxy DMT for that for that purpose because of
(1:00:07) the similarities between these non-dual states and these experiences of unity and nothingness that 5meo induces great um we'll now take a couple of questions from the audience unless Andrew did you want to chime in on that last question or no okay um so uh if you're if you have a question from the in-person audience could you just please come up to the laptop um so that everybody online can hear your questions so Chris if you want to just pick a couple people raising their hands over there sure I also have to leave but um okay
(1:00:42) we'll just we'll just do one question then one question no no you guys should keep uh don't uh don't mind me uh there you go um so you mentioned five new thoughts too and I was just really curious because obviously it's something that you can help is that something so kind of like how Angie mentioned where you could maybe like Infuse it for a longer period of time is that any research that you've seen anyone do maybe at the like Imperial Maybe a fiber meal X yeah no we're we're not uh I think it's it's
(1:01:19) too early to to think of something like that I mean I don't know it could be done it's just I think the safety profile the 5mm DMT is still not uh as well researched as the one from BMT what do you think would happen um because obviously the effects if you had to predict what would happen to someone well it depends on the dose it depends on on the the level of of that extreme but I would be kind of afraid to extend it too much but I think we do have you know methods of administration that could maybe to a
(1:01:51) certain extent uh prolongation which is international Administration for example or intramuscular Administration uh any control contexts it appears to be fairly safe although there is some data suggesting that you know these five mere experiences when they're strong they can be you know they can be challenging so so I think maybe but you know further along the line that's very cool thank you okay Mike came up oh so hopefully they have that yes yeah that all came through loud and clear uh online um so I know Chris has got to go uh and
(1:02:32) I'm sure Andrew's itching to get some sleep um so I think we'll end the event here even though I have probably 10 hours worth of questions that I could ask the three of you um so thank you so much again uh for joining us for this event I'd love to do another Edition where we can dive deeper into into coming up with these Maps um thank you so so much guys thank you very much thank you thanks everybody thank you
Mapping Out The DMT Hyperspace - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyXp7thv00
Transcript:
(00:00) okay great um let's get started um thank you so much everybody for joining us uh both in person at Oxford uh and online here on Zoom um I have a bit of a shoddy internet connection so I apologize if it goes awry we've got a truly International crowd today so uh Chris Timmerman is uh joining the audience in person at Oxford uh Daniel McQueen is calling in from Colorado uh and Andrew Gallimore is calling in from Okinawa Japan uh where it is currently 4 30 a.
(00:35) m sorry from Tokyo from Tokyo um where it's for 4 30 in the morning so Andrew you're a real trooper um thank you so much for joining us um so this is uh mapping out DMT hyperspace um we are very lucky to be joined today by three incredible speakers uh Andrew galmore Chris Timberman and Daniel McQueen will be speaking in that order uh let me just introduce the three speakers very briefly uh Dr Andrew Gallimore is a computational neurobiologist pharmacologist chemiston writer who's been interested in the
(01:07) neural basis of psychedelic drug action for many years and is an author of a number of Articles and research papers on the powerful psychedelic drug DMT and its effects on the brain and Consciousness we recently collaborated with DNT Pioneer Dr Rick Strassman author of DMT The Spirit Molecule to develop a pharmacokinetic model of DMT as the basis of a target-controlled intravenous infusion protocol for extended Journeys in DMT space also known as dmtx his current interests focus on DMT as a tool for gaining access to extra-dimensional realities
(01:36) and how this can be understood in terms of the Neuroscience of information he currently lives and works in Japan next Chris Timmerman obtained a BSC in Psychology in Santiago Chile and an MSC in cognitive neuroscience at the University of Bologna in Italy he is based at Imperial College London at the center for psychedelic research where he led near Imaging research on the effects of the potent psychedelic DMT in the human brain and Consciousness his work focuses on the Neuroscience psychology beliefs and ethics of the Psychedelic
(02:04) experience and finally last but not least Daniel McQueen is a psychedelic specialist psychedelic therapy educator activist and author of the book psychedelic cannabis in 2012 he co-founded the center of medicinal mindfulness which is the first legal plant-based psychedelic Therapy Center in the United States Daniel specializes in using cannabis assisted psychedelic therapy and ketamine assisted psychedelic therapy as tools for transformation and healing his work with psychedelic cannabis has created a widespread movement of
(02:32) practitioners across the U.S and Canada in 2016 to test his own activist edges Daniel initiated the dmtx research and exploration program to implement a new Extended State DMT Administration protocol that was designed by Dr Andrew Gallimore and Dr Rick Strassman most recently with the team of naropa aligned psychedelic Advocates Daniel helped found the non-profit medicinal mindfulness Center for psychedelics spirituality and sustainability to focus on the use of psychedelics and ethical professional settings for healing and to
(03:00) help transform the global climate crisis so truly an All-Star team thank you the three of us for joining um so the event is going to consist of three 15-minute presentations from Andrew Chris and then Daniel and then we'll launch into a moderated q a and finally some questions from the audience and will aim to be done by 9 pm UK time so Andrew without further Ado I'll let you take it away yep yep okay okay good morning everybody um thanks for coming um Okay so I get I will talk briefly about um I guess the origins a little bit of
(03:42) um dmtx and why I'm particularly uh interested in in DMT and what I see is the um the potential use cases for DMT which might differ from Chris's but we will we will see um so first of all is that not working oh there we go obligatory plugs please do go to my website if you want to see everything that I write about and talk about and all that kind of stuff the building alienworlds.
(04:17) com uh also please do buy my new book reality switch Technologies recommended by Hamilton Morris hey who else um and or my first book as well uh Alien information Theory which is also excellent not recommended by Hamilton Morris um so DMT um for me is interesting more than interesting it is astonishingly remarkably fascinating for me and has been for uh at least a couple of decades um and is what what kind of prompted me to think about uh or to inspire dmtx originally back in sort of 2015.
(05:05) um whilst we've learned largely um owing to the work of the Imperial College team and others we know a lot more about DMT now and how it works in the brain there's still uh um uh quite a lot I would say about dmt's phenomenology that we still do not understand and that we still struggle to explain uh and I would dare say quite a lot that we that remains somewhat confounding even as a neuroscientist I find the the complexity and the content and the structure of the DMT space to be utterly confounding and I don't think it
(05:52) is straightforward to explain it um so extended sojourns within the DMT space certainly can have a lot of value there um um and of course you're all familiar I think with the the the phenomenology of the DMT space this inordinate complexity it's hyper technological space that appears to contain more spatial Dimensions than than our three plus one dimensional Universe the presence of these extremely powerful and a seemingly hyper intelligent beings um the the Lucidity the efficiency and the clarity of the space is is is quite
(06:36) remarkable um uh and of course that that old question that everyone asks when when you talk about DMT is it real sort of the ontological question I think is for me at least an extremely interesting one perhaps the central question we all want to know the answer to Is it real whatever real might mean and perhaps we can talk about that um so I think we have three basic broad interpretations of the DMT space we can we can call it some kind of hallucination that would be your Orthodox default position it is a pure
(07:13) wild fabrication of the human brain um Perhaps it is um some kind of unconscious structures bubbling up from the collective psyche um in a sort of jungian sense that has some merits as well or shifting to the much more um unorthodox slightly more far out explanations which I tend to um reach into sometimes to uh some criticism but whatever the idea that we might in fact be dealing with some kind of intelligent some kind of non-human discard alien dare we say intelligence from some other external reality these are
(08:01) unanswered questions um so the problem with DMT of course is that it is a very brief trip you you're hurtled into this extremely bizarre realm and disoriented shocked horrified appalled um you have a chance to look around wide-eyed for three minutes four minutes maybe Max at the peak um and then you are dragged back into the consensus world again so it is not a the standard smoking or bolus administration of DMT is not amenable to more detailed analysis and exploration and we say mapping which is what we're going to
(08:50) talk about today so the idea that we might be able to extend the experience by using this technology Illustrated here from anesthesiology came to me back in in in in 2015 the the idea of delivering DMT with this slowest sustained drip is certainly not my idea originally um other people have used similar Technologies but I think um what um myself and Rick Strassman were able to bring to the table was the idea of using a pharmacokinetic model using the technology from um anesthesiology what's called Target controlled intravenous infusion or TCI
(09:44) to actually maintain a stable brain concentration so you're not merely delivering a um an infusion but you're actually delivering a programmed infusion informed by a pharmacokinetic model such that you can maintain a stable brain DMT concentration over time so you can induce somebody into the DMT State and hold them there at a stable level rather than having the levels fluctuate or based upon chance or guesswork so the the target controlled intervenous infusion technology relies upon this this pharmacokinetic model and that
(10:28) takes account of the um the distribution and metabolism and excretion elimination of the drug over time so as to maintain this stable brain concentration uh and I know that Chris Timmerman and collaborators have been able to much improve upon this proof of principle model that myself and uh Rick Strassman uh developed um so so what originally prompted me to um to uh to believe that DMT was amenable to this technology was it's its unique uh pharmacological peculiarities that make it almost almost as if it was designed to be used in this way and that
(11:25) it has this very rapid but brief clinical or subjective effects and as Rick Strassman was able to demonstrate in the in the 90s that it doesn't have a behavioral tolerance so you can inject somebody with DMT and and they will have a certain intensity of effect she was able to measure and then inject them 30 minutes later they would have exactly the same intensity of effects so this is a a really important Discovery by by Rick Strassman um which meant to me having as I was reading his papers that it would make
(12:04) DMT amenable to this kind of um technology um so so I wrote to Rick um back in sometime in 2015 and asked for his blood data hoped that he would still have this Blood data which fortunately he did um and that allowed me to construct this this preliminary proof of principle model which we then published um in 2016 and which I think it's fair to say peaked a lot of people's interest in in this and it's it's kind of remarkable to me and very nice to see that um in the seven years since this paper has
(12:54) been published now almost um it's it's garnered a lot of attention and and inspired a lot of people and we're actually now it's kind of amazing we have two people here also talking who are actually um implementing this technology um some for more academic and some more academic side the established Proper University so to speak at Imperial and then perhaps closer to my original Vision the kind of the the non-academic um the more exploratory size so it's we have a nice balance there which is cool
(13:30) and no doubt there will be other groups who appear in the in the coming years uh also developing their own version of dmtx um so yeah so the idea is that now this initial roller coaster entry phase which is normally the extent of the DMT experience after the bolus injection you can push past that and enter what I would call in orientation phase where the individual is able to kind of Orient themselves within the DMT space and then it was my hope my my prediction am I well mainly My Hope um that the state would actually
(14:17) stabilize over time that the the the subject the Tripper the junior uh would actually be able to fully Orient themselves and remain stable within the state which would then open up the space for uh more detailed exploration to mapping and perhaps even to experiments and that kind of thing and I think hopefully that's something that's been borne out with with the Imperial teams experiments maybe Chris will talk about that um so what do we do with with dmtx um finally um the obviously there are the more kind of
(14:55) prosaic applications of dmtx so you know the clinical applications which aren't in which certainly aren't insignificant and could be quite important I think because you can um control the level of the experience bring people in bring them out and kind of allow um kind of multiple integration periods within the same trip you know pushing them a little bit further dealing with some kind of uh unconscious material that kind of thing then bring them out to actually discuss that so I think it has many advantages perhaps over just
(15:31) giving someone you know psilocybin or LSD or whatever and then kind of riding out over several hours the trip so but also of course for me personally I'm I'm more interested in the phenomenology of the state um and I think there are two broad questions which we we might get to talk about today obviously this is the mapping one um in in quotation marks here in um I think there are many ways we can interpret the word mapping and that's obviously something we're going to talk about today so mapping of the space and
(16:05) also the occupancy The Entity experiences these are some of the most interesting aspects who you meet in the DMT space I think many people people are particularly interested in and then then we have questions of ontological testing so is it real and I think there are two broad ways that you might look at that and one is to actually test in some way the DMT Space by the brain um and also testing the entities themselves um so testing the the space what I mean here is a breaking Convention of three years ago I spoke about this idea of whether the
(16:49) DMT world could be thought of as a sensed world or as a dreamt world so a sensed world is one that is constrained and um um constrained by sensory information um sensed worlds are not magical worlds they have certain properties so the normal waking world has certain properties uh it has has stability it has consistency it has predictability uh and um Jeff Hawkins theoretical neuroscientist spelled that wrong sorry um says predictability is the very definition of reality so we might be able to actually judge the reality the
(17:30) ontology of the DMT space not by kind of having to kind of reach out into the space and actually test the beings or whatever but actually look at how the brain is constructing it and that might tell us whether it's a world that's being actively modulated actively constrained by some kind of sensory information from outside the brain reverses a purely dreamed world or a purely hallucinated world so I think there's a lot of the the DMT space might be amenable to testing in that way without having to
(18:02) actually um reach out into the space and then of course um for many years people have thought about how we might test the entities to determine whether or not they are real so to speak and we can think of tasks or that we might give them people have thought about giving them mathematical problems finding the unique prime factors of very large numbers something that a human brain couldn't do during the trip or any time really and that these beings if they truly are at you know hyper intelligences they might be able to to achieve there aren't
(18:42) this is obviously there are issues with this kind of uh tests um but also you might ask the entities to provide information that cannot be known by the subject this kind of thing um okay so I think how I'm going to be speaking I think that's enough for me um so I will finish there and so we have a lot more to discuss then so thank you very much great thank you so much Andrew um we'll now switch over to Chris uh who is live in Oxford um and now we will go to uh Daniel McQueen for the third and final
(19:21) presentation hey everybody how's my volume I think you're I think you're you're good all right great uh well thanks for having me and uh Chris congratulations on the um on being able to do the Expeditions that's really wonderful uh it's inspiring to be part of this program and uh and being inspired by uh you both Andrew it's great seeing you here as well um I have a short presentation I'd like to share with you all so I just a name that I'm coming from a completely different orientation as a psychedelic
(19:57) guide and facilitator I'm here in Boulder Colorado and I was uh I learned about Extended State DMT through Rick Strassman who sent us who sent me the um paper that he and Andrew wrote in 2016 and then I gave a presentation on the subject just here you know the topic uh as a is something that really inspired me when we did a presentation uh called psychedelic shine here in Boulder where we had Dennis McKinnon come to speak as well so and then after that people started to ask me well what would it take to do this we should try to do this
(20:32) so I started to explore what it would actually take so I'm coming from a foundation of stepping out of the research space and into a realm of possibly designing Retreat experiences and intensive experiences for a different populations and communities so let me share my screen here and we'll just um hold on just a second we'll just hop right into it can you all see that okay here we go this looks normal okay so if you're interested in learning more about my program where the where the um where the one of the first psychedelic
(21:15) therapy centers in the United States working in a legal setting we work with cannabis as a psychedelic and ketamine and proposition 122 just passed here in Colorado and so now psilocybin and DMT are legal for personal use and we'll be stepping into regulated uh a regulated model in the next few years so we're going to start working with psilocybin in DMT in a clinical Community setting um and so I'd like to invite you to explore cannabis as a psychedelic because there's a lot of similarities
(21:46) between a strong uh cannabis experience and an extended state trip very similar to Ayahuasca and psilocybin um one of our primary partners that I'd like to recommend checking out is new nautics and Andrew I believe you're on the board of advisors now with mnotics and Egon ehrenberg's group so so this is a community to help us with the non-profit side of the word and then our program is called dreamline technology Expeditions we actually created a company to handle all the back end Logistics of this work so and Andrew
(22:23) came up with the concept of the name dmtx we worked together to play with the name what we call an extended state DNC and I know there's other names for it as well um so one of the primary differences of our program and what Chris is doing is that we work within a multi-paradigm approach where we acknowledge and and foundation and scientific inquiry but we also honor the spiritual and the existential Dimensions the transpersonal dimensions of this work we work with a lot of indigenous practitioners and other
(22:59) spiritual practitioners and then most of our team comes from a grounded clinical background so psychological safety and exploration is really important to us and then honoring the community aspects of DMT and other psychedelic medicines the creativity and Aesthetics so we do a lot of art around this work and we honor we want to bring in more music as a as a facilitator's tool to this and and I put on here this mirrors the primary missions of our particular program and that we want to work not only do we want
(23:34) to just explore this space I think Chris is taking the lead on on the logistics and the safety and all of that piece and once that's dialed in we want to put scientists through this experiment and see what that does to their psyche and their brain and maybe it can help them come up with a big solutions to world problems another idea we want to do is bring in a spiritual and religious practitioners and teachers so creating like community events around this where people can come together I have a shared Vision or intention have
(24:14) an experience a shared experience with extended state DMT and then come back and speak to it and maybe something phenomenal will come out of that um so here's our current team and I'm going to share a little bit about what we've done over the last few years but myself and Carla Dr Clemens is our co-facilitators we do have a medical team comprising of anesthesiologists and medical doctors and nurses we have a clinical team with psychologists and a lot of art therapists licensed professional counselors this is to
(24:47) ensure that people are landing well and have the support they need afterwards and then we have a technical team we're also interested in EEG work thinking that maybe we might be able to stabilize it in different ways than what Chris is saying um and we're also bringing an art an art artist a sketch artist so that they can have the experiences described to them and actually jot it down and try to create some images around this um and right now we have a cohort of of a dmtx Psychonauts that we've been
(25:21) training with over the last few years one of the things really quick set is like comparing the the typical modern DMT experience and and what he like called Visionary States um you know using ancient Judaism as a as a model was that there was a lot more um stability and meaning in the people who had um who had mindfulness practices and so we're con we're actively engaging in practicing different mindfulness techniques to help bring in stability to these these Extended State experiences um and then Andrew mentioned just
(26:01) alluded to this so I just went ahead and added this slide that we think that there might be different applications for different levels of DMT stabilization from like on the lower end from like clinical disorders and physiological disorders uh that could you know maybe DMT infusions could help then there's like these a little bit higher level of creative psycholytic levels of therapeutic or aren't enhancing then there's like the Ayahuasca levels and then a dual awareness space where you're kind of
(26:29) you're it looks it sounds like what Chris was doing was they're able to communicate through the uh Journey um and give feedback in the present moment and then what we would call like the Breakthrough state where a person was was probably non-responsive but going into a full DMT experience for an extended period of time how long someone can do this you know like is going to be an interesting question I just I know from experience that people's bladders start talking to them about an hour and a half you know
(26:58) so we're wondering you know about like just the physical um um limitations of of being in these states and then and then we think that there's probably an upper limit of just usability that there might not be like you know like just to not take too much otherwise it would just become too fragmented and disconnected and confusing um and this is what I believe you know this is now an ancient alchemical uh image which I think I've seen on Andrew used before in the past but like there's this normal reality that we're all part
(27:33) of that's three-dimensional plus time and then there it does appear to be this ability with the use of DMT as a technology to um start like our brains attempting to perceive higher dimensional states of reality that may be populated by something that's objectively um unique and different than us not interconnected with us but maybe something more than us so that's the big question that we're all curious about and then you know again we love art and uh and so we created these astronaut psychonaut badges you know that we give
(28:09) to our team members and things you know just to bring in community and play and uh creativity into these programs and then and Andrew shared an older version of this image but you know like eventually like creating some sort of DMT manual you know space technology and DMT technology is really interrelated so I keep playing with this idea of like when SpaceX goes to Mars you know what are they going to do for taking a break from that little pod you know maybe maybe Extended State DMT can go to Mars with the with the astronauts at some
(28:40) point in their future maybe 50 or 100 years who knows um and and then um let's see so what have I been doing these last few years while you all been working on your projects uh we did it we've done a series of psychonaut training uh Retreats and Expeditions using legal medicines here in Colorado and so the first one we did we had a community you know we have these communities are about you know 20 person groups we work with cannabis uh cannabis and breath work and then we actually participated in a Peyote ceremony as a community
(29:13) and the intention was to you know prepare ourselves psychically so to speak spiritually mentally physically for Extended State DMT experiences um then we did another one the next year in added ketamine experiences and I've been working with a lot Academy a bit with clients and working with it myself as well and I'm starting to see the connections with ketamine and DMT and how to navigate these really deep spaces that are very altered um in DMT X3 um we went online and worked with cannabis and breath work again because
(29:51) we were supposed to go to Costa Rica and this was right we were planning this right as covet was happening and uh and Costa Rica was supposed to be our first DMT related experiences with Ayahuasca analogs and smoke smoke DNT junga and that got canceled so we went online instead and then the mtx4 um is going to happen this year in Colorado we were set to go to Jamaica so we had set it up we were getting the medicine imported I don't want to go into the details of all of that but um you know we have a legal team and we
(30:28) were having the medicine imported for um DMT experiences in Jamaica because it was legal there that got postponed because um our offices got flooded we had this weird climate change related event here in Colorado it was like a really significant storm and it flooded our offices and it and it derailed our program for about a month and at that same time I realized that proposition 122 was going to be voted on so we paused the trip realizing that maybe we could just bring the dntx program to Colorado and so proposition 122 passed
(31:07) and we're going to do our first real you know full DMT Retreat using smoke DMT this summer here in Colorado First legal DMT retreat in the United States possibly and then we're starting to uh we're going to start a series of expedition Retreats using smoke DMT while we figure out the regulated model and bringing in synthetic DMT for the extended state DNT experience and that's gonna you know that's that'll be happen you know the next few years is is kind of the intention there um so here here what we were thinking
(31:47) this was our Costa Rica Expedition well that didn't happen but we were going to work out of these little pod rooms um that were really nice um uh different set and setting set up music and things uh and have a really nice contained space and that this is what it would um this would be the setup for something like this so what Chris has done you know something that we hope to do and to have co-guides medical direct medical doctor and a nurse a lot of equipment in the room but a lot of support as well where they and and also you know like
(32:22) initially doing it with intentionality meditation and depending on the client or the or the psycho not possibly prayer as well within beautiful meditation altar in the middle in front of the Psychonauts so they could see something pretty that was nice to them before they go into the Expedition and then the long-term goal to make it more affordable um and to to explore with group [Music] um group Expeditions is that create a larger room with up you know four Psychonauts going about the same time with kind of a station in the middle for
(33:00) the medical staff but away from the visual um view of the of the Psychonauts each one having sitter and guides and and then having like a again like a different technology in the room for monitoring safety and possibly even documenting you know with video and film and then after people would come out of the journey experiences they would go directly to assessment experts and integration therapists um and uh maybe even the sketch artist you know to share their experiences as well so um so that's about where we're at like
(33:41) we're right on the next few months we'll be doing our first DMT Journey Expeditions and and hopefully that will you know build from there to be able to offer Extended State DMT when um you know again the laws on the regulations kind of catch up to us here in Colorado so um so that's that's what I have to share for you all thank you so much Daniel um absolutely fantastic talk um so we are now um at uh it's now 8 45.
(34:19) it's only got about 15 minutes left um in uh this event um so I'll just ask one question um real quick uh and then um and then move on to questions from the audiences I'm sure there are many um so the title of this event is mapping out DMT hyperspace and I want to get your thoughts on to what extent we can actually create a real map of the DMT hyperspace and what that map actually looks like you know like in a physical map we have coordinates right latitude and longitude what were the coordinates of the DMT map look like
(34:58) okay should I begin go ahead um yeah so this is a really interesting question I think the idea of mapping um has been raised by a number of people I think there's there's a little bit of um hyperbole surrounding the idea of mapping I think a lot of people thought that the idea of mapping the DMT space is kind of ridiculous um because it is so complex uh it is so strange it is so variable um so I don't think we're anywhere close to a kind of an Ordnance survey you won't know what that is kind of maybe
(35:36) you will I don't have that in the States but anyway um so you know some kind of Ordinance survey map of the DMT space I think is out of the question but that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of mapping um so one can think about um level mapping for example so um do different levels of intensity of experience reliably take you to different types of spaces is there a um a progression I mean people talk already about you know the moving through the waiting room and the Dome and there's already been developed in a
(36:16) very informal sense uh a certain kind of mapping of the space you know what is the normal procession through the space so I think we have that that's something that we can we can anchor and work with um and and and formalize more and get a better description of the kind of experience one should expect even if there is going to be some stochasticity there and variability between individuals uh but also mapping might also mean um the the kind of the topological or geometric structure of the space I know there are a number
(36:56) of people thinking about that you know can we can we map how the the geometry uh and the topology of the space changes over time can we formalize that can we get a formal description of the different types of the kind of mathematical spatial structure of the space over time um so I think there's a lot we can we can do with mapping and then of course mapping the the entities as well you know the Flora and Fauna of the DNT space um so I think it needs to be worked out what we mean by mapping but I don't
(37:30) think we're completely lost um when it comes to the idea of mapping I think there are many things that we can um many approaches I think we're spoiled for Choice really the number of approaches we can take when it comes to formally describing a much better way than we have now Beyond kind of just kind of trip reports kind of phenomenological verbal trip reports um Daniel spoke about getting actual pictures being drawn of the space you know and so I think yeah I think there are many opportunities there
(38:05) um before we move on to either Chris or Daniel I just want to say to the people online uh please post your questions in the chat uh and I'll read them out um uh later on um Chris go ahead yeah I mean I think that the the idea of mapping is interesting and important because um after doing many of these interviews I've realized that a big part of the experience is determined by cultural factors as you would expect um and much more than people intuitively or naively think when it comes to DMT I think that there's a bit of a trick with
(38:44) the DMT space that it makes you feel that what you're seeing is very fundamental and authentic and um I think people tend to forget quite a bit that our ordinary perception is filled with traps and assumptions about what is real out there um so I think that what the first step to take to try to achieve any form of mapping is to take a rigorous approach to understand these experiences and we have Traditions that can help us in that regard so one tradition is for example the tradition of phenomenology and the
(39:24) phenomenologists uh you know the philosophical tradition of the careful and disciplined examination of experience um and we have other Traditions that are linked to contemplative practices uh I think that this is actually one of the most fruitful possible approaches that I think from phenomenology that we can take here is how do we train individuals to examine their own experiences with a critical perspective so I think what can be derived from that and what is interesting actually for us to understand you know how is this a
(40:01) method for exploration of you know what it means to be alive um is not try to understand so much the contents of the experience but the structures of the experience the forms what are the fundamental properties of how these things come about so you're much more interested in the process rather than in the confidence um and the way to do that I think is fundamentally a relational process so you need you know to have another person an experienced facilitator who have undergone you know all those tricky aspects of examining their own
(40:37) experiences with a critical eye that can help you scaffold your own process of examining your own experience so I think that that's that's kind of like the approach that I think is is more fruitful and that hopefully will get us advanced in in a way to try to understand these experiences a bit better rather than you know over fetishizing certain features of it that seems to be you know almost means down into these cultures so I think yeah I think that would be my general approach when it comes to the idea of
(41:10) mapping experience foreign thanks so much Chris uh Daniel did you have anything you wanted to add on to that yeah I'll just point uh a couple of things that are a little different I agree with everything that um Chris and Andrew were saying um we've noticed that there's like uh like levels maybe what what Andrew was saying what I would put them under would be like personal biographical material and then what we would have is like the collective unconscious or dreamlike material which you know archetypal
(41:40) uncultural then there appears to be like a like a level beyond that which might be uh considered transpersonal or you could use like there's different religious models that might come into play here and then possibly like multi what would you call them like the Multiverse or multiple realities or just this very bizarre alien landscape that's not human at all um another way I would consider mapping it is temporal like past present and future like is the content about the past is it about like what's happening
(42:12) in the world today or is it like future oriented or like Vision or prophecy or like high technology science fiction type oriented would be another way I would look at it and then also like how fast time goes is it like personal like scales that are human or is it scales that are like geological and like Universal you know like witnessing the big bang and the creation of of galaxies and things like that um and then Chris I think you're you're pointing something really important is like mapping like healthy responses like
(42:46) clinically healthy responses to these experiences versus um what we would call unhealthy or diluted responses to the this medicine because I you know we get a lot of emails from people who use a lot of DMT and some of which I would say are expressing like unhealthy um Expeditions and overuse and you know like learning how to distinguish from like a real transpersonal phenomenon and something that is diluted or fantasy um and these are things that live work in the realm of like psychology and clinical applications of assessment you
(43:20) know so those would be areas that I would I would explore fantastic thanks so much Daniel um I'll ask just one more question because I can't resist um I'm I'm curious whether you guys think that it's possible to form uh relationships with uh the entities in the DMT space in other words the more time that you spend in DMT hyperspace can you actually get to know the entities deeper and in the process can you actually gain a greater self-knowledge to the extent that those entities are just reflections of your
(43:50) own consciousness um well apparently so I I I've been in contact with quite a few people over the years who contact me and who I've people who are very experienced with DMT um particularly now people are using these uh vape pens um which is kind of a very crude dmtx and that you can actually control the level experience you know without having glass pipes and naked flames you can actually maintain yourself kind of within the space over time and I've I've had reports from people that they that
(44:30) over many months of using DMT regularly they are able to regularly make contact and meet and indeed develop a relationship with with certain entities and you know I believe them I have no reason to distrust that so it certainly seems possible it doesn't seem if you go in there with some kind of intent to to meet a certain entity and if you're familiar with that entity that it does seem possible that you can encounter that particular entity over time which is uh remarkable really because as you say you know it could be
(45:08) if you can establish some kind of two-way communication you might be able to Garner information about perhaps yourself but also perhaps their world I mean it's kind of it's uh it's almost unfathomable that we could you could develop this relationship with this this entity who you can then extract information or that's maybe the wrong word it sounds a bit closient Colonial list but um that you could actually really how develop some kind of two-way communicative relationships such as you can ask them questions about that the
(45:47) origin of their space you know we can't assume that it is just a reflection of the self these the sort of questions we can we can deal with if we can do that so I think that's really important actually aspect of this it's not just about mapping the space and kind of looking around uh in a but actually working more like an anthropologist um than just an Explorer and that you are actually getting to know the beings within the space and learning about their culture so to speak their hyper-dimensional culture and and where
(46:22) they came from and what they are and what they do and what it means you know that to me is a really important uh approach um it seems a much more natural approach for humans who are very communicative you know social beings we like to talk to other beings to get information so I think that's a really important approach that we can take with with DMT I think yeah I mean just I think uh just to compliment that I I think that if one looks into actually the anthropological literature of uh Amazonian cultures um whether whether it's mestizo or
(47:03) indigenous ones uh you'll find that you know Ayahuasca users especially shamans to develop stable relationships with you know the spirits that they encounter and the plants that they are attached to um and how there's a there's there's a clear relationship that is cultivated in that for the skillful use of certain medicines attached to those plants so I think I mean to your question Kenneth I think there is whether or not it's possible I think the anthropological literature suggests that it happens
(47:43) what I think is crucially different in that context from the psychonatic Western context is that the cosmology is kind of um supports that sort of cultivation of those relationships in these Amazonian cultures we've given extended forms of DMT to individuals on repeated occasions up to four occasions and we don't see the stability of these entities or these beings and again I'm not making any assumption here about the ontology of these beings and you're seeing their experiences um so we don't see a stability of them
(48:20) you know recurring the same entity or the same feature and it could be that with the right cultural priming uh for example a strong Cosmo Vision about you know entity X Y or Z then there could be some form of stabilization of that entity when the experiences are happening and that these relationships can be cultivated and that these relationships can be meaningful for the individual so I think it's a very context dependent thing whether or not these things are possible yeah Daniel did you have anything you wanted
(49:00) to add on to that yeah I've heard a story similar to what Chris is saying even at um Ayahuasca practitioner of having even a second life and a second family you know and a lot of people report back and have feeling um connected to their ancestors you know so these you know some of these entities might not be completely random but somehow connected to us if you believe in um that particular worldview and I I have had multiple experiences with the same entities that have come to talk to me and they speak in color and flashing
(49:34) lights and point the way you know somebody mentioned in the thing that their their guides they show us how to step into these inner spaces and I would love to have like a longer conversation in just a few minutes with that and sometimes the symbols that they share some of the visual symbols are Clues to personal processes and that I you know I've worked with and don't show up um for years and years later I don't understand why that particular symbol showed up for years I think of the dmtx ideas like a us like
(50:06) a foreign student Exchange program you're able to immerse yourself in another culture and hopefully it'll be stabilized long enough that you just don't like the channel just doesn't change over and over again and that you're able to have a ongoing relationship I think that's actually really possible in these spaces amazing thanks so much um so we'll take just two questions from online uh and then two questions from the in-person audience we are already a bit over time so Chris if you do need to
(50:36) head out um let me know um but hopefully what we can take about like maybe 15 minutes of questions from the audience um so the first one is from Adam he says the BMT experience feels like it comes from outside itself uh what is the reason for this questions so uh there's there could be many reasons why why it feels outside the cell and I think if you want to be very cynical about it you can give a very reductionistic explanation so uh so we see that there's a strong dysregulation of normal brain activity
(51:13) uh in the frontal cortex and we know that certain metacognitive capacities so the ability to be aware of our own thoughts or what is real and not real can be compromised if you will under a certain extent so I think from a reductionistic approach I'm not saying I have that approach I'm just saying that you know it's a possibility it could be that it feels real because her ability to determine what is real and not real is fairly compromised and uh there's not just this you know biological explanation there's also the
(51:51) fundamental logical explanation a lot of people have strong insights in these experiences which are not necessarily real and that upon further examination in fact do seem that you know they don't make much sense so it could be that the alternative explanation you know I'll leave it for for maybe others to to contribute to it okay so I guess you mean me [Laughter] um yeah so okay um so I think sure this reality testing is very is very difficult and and complicated and certainly I mean even in the dream state
(52:35) um this this frontal deactivation uh is present so you don't normally recognize that the dream state is a dream unless you are Lucid dreamer where you can kind of reactivate and you see this kind of thing also in schizophrenia where people hear voices and there is there seems to be an issue with the attribution of that voice that you would normally attribute to yourself because of this disconnectivity between the frontal and other parts of the brain um there is obviously you know the extremely alien nature of the experience the intensity
(53:10) the clarity all of these things the fact that it does seem to bear no relationship whatsoever to normal waking reality all of it makes it seem extremely alien which can contribute to that maybe and whether that means it truly is alien is a different matter um one thing I would say is that what you see with with dreamers is when when dreamers wake up they accept fully that it was just a dream and like likewise when schizophrenics are treated um when they they kind of they recover from their delusive delusionary thought
(53:50) process they again accept that the voice in their head was just them you know it wasn't real um what's striking I think about DMT is that even after the trip is over and you come down from the experience people are still utterly 100 convinced even though they know they took a drug they took a powerful psychedelic drug they they still remain completely convinced that this was not just so they have all of their reality testing faculties reconstructed and yet they will still tell you there's no way that this was
(54:28) just a hallucination or just a product of their own mind what do you make of that um I don't know but I I think it's quite interesting um that people are unwilling to accept oh that it was just uh that it was just some kind of dream process or just some kind of hallucination so I think there is there is there are still kind of pockets of the um the inexplicable that remain uh even uh after accounting for all of these aberrant and disorganized and all that uh neurological processes yeah I just I just want to come back sorry for urugues
(55:10) we've been like I actually wanted to copy what you said Andrew with the fact that um actually it's quite interesting because if you look at the at the model supported by the evidence around psychedelic action and we see that with DMT as well it seems that there is a part that has to do with a deconstruction of all these crystallized models of the world that we have constructed throughout our adulthood and uh and I actually think that there is room to put forward the hypothesis that there is some form of fundamental state of
(55:46) being that is somehow activated in these experiences very intense secondary experiences and certainly DMT experiences and um my my kind of like initial guess around why it feels so real is because it feels authentic the the experience has a form of Elementary feeling to it that is also geysed up many times in deceiving ways so that that would be my kind of like mixed also uh approach to that answer I guess maybe just add a few more pieces you know I've thought about this a lot and I think the brain is trying to perceive
(56:33) something more than four-dimensional you know and it can get a little unruly but I believe it's pointing to um this awareness of perception of more than four dimensions and I think by definition that makes it feel more real than real because what we experience as real is you know four-dimensional space and so I think there's you know like the brain is trying to wrap its head around something that it's hard for us to comprehend in a normal State um the other thing what Chris was pointing to it's like it feels familiar
(57:03) like uh there's something about it that it's more of a remembering than it is like an uncovering something new sometimes for a lot of people and so it's like returning to a place that you were before or you know or where you're gonna go when you die or where we were before we were born you know I'm not quite sure what that is but uh but if feels familiar and it's more of a remembering and I think that's what makes it feel more real and then you know the other thing that you know that
(57:31) the the caution of the more real than real doesn't mean it's true and I think you know Chris is pointing to that too in that like you know there are people who are psychotic that truly believe their their worldview is is very real um but it doesn't connect with consensus reality or other people's ability to understand it and Rick Strassman talked to me about this like when you experience a DNT State and you might be narcissistic and you believe you're the you know you're the peak of the world
(58:01) and the best that all things you know um that there's a lot of damage that can be done of somebody who really believes in their delusion you know so so it's it's I think it's really important to work with healthy people and also to check them when they come back and and you know like do the reality testing and and like and push their edges a little bit with what um Andrew was saying about like they really believe it happened you know and I think that's I don't we don't want to Discount that but we want to
(58:29) check it you know as much as we can so so those are my thoughts on that one for sure thanks so much all great great answers um this next one is a pretty quick one uh are there any plans to contact high-level Buddhist Meditation Masters that can be injected with DMT in other words enrolling meditate meditation Masters in dmtx you can speak to that briefly but you know we do want to work with you know not just Buddhist practitioners but other religious practitioners as well and that will be something that we'll
(59:02) step into as we get further along into the program but you know naropa University is here and there's a lot of Buddhist practitioners in this area but that would be the idea is Multicultural um spiritual practitioners so people who have like contemplative practices from multiple Traditions would be what I would like to do with it yeah on our end we're we're also working in a similar sort of Direction um precisely because again uh you know very experienced meditators have the capacity to talk about their experience
(59:34) at length and have a capacity to maintain a form of awareness in these extreme states they have a training of sorts uh which I guess you could argue that Psychonauts many times may have the only difference is that we know we don't have uh schools of practices of thousands of years of Psychonauts so it's it's I think it's very interesting to to go to very experienced police practitioners and I am particularly interested not just in DMT for that but also fighting the foxy DMT for that for that purpose because of
(1:00:07) the similarities between these non-dual states and these experiences of unity and nothingness that 5meo induces great um we'll now take a couple of questions from the audience unless Andrew did you want to chime in on that last question or no okay um so uh if you're if you have a question from the in-person audience could you just please come up to the laptop um so that everybody online can hear your questions so Chris if you want to just pick a couple people raising their hands over there sure I also have to leave but um okay
(1:00:42) we'll just we'll just do one question then one question no no you guys should keep uh don't uh don't mind me uh there you go um so you mentioned five new thoughts too and I was just really curious because obviously it's something that you can help is that something so kind of like how Angie mentioned where you could maybe like Infuse it for a longer period of time is that any research that you've seen anyone do maybe at the like Imperial Maybe a fiber meal X yeah no we're we're not uh I think it's it's
(1:01:19) too early to to think of something like that I mean I don't know it could be done it's just I think the safety profile the 5mm DMT is still not uh as well researched as the one from BMT what do you think would happen um because obviously the effects if you had to predict what would happen to someone well it depends on the dose it depends on on the the level of of that extreme but I would be kind of afraid to extend it too much but I think we do have you know methods of administration that could maybe to a
(1:01:51) certain extent uh prolongation which is international Administration for example or intramuscular Administration uh any control contexts it appears to be fairly safe although there is some data suggesting that you know these five mere experiences when they're strong they can be you know they can be challenging so so I think maybe but you know further along the line that's very cool thank you okay Mike came up oh so hopefully they have that yes yeah that all came through loud and clear uh online um so I know Chris has got to go uh and
(1:02:32) I'm sure Andrew's itching to get some sleep um so I think we'll end the event here even though I have probably 10 hours worth of questions that I could ask the three of you um so thank you so much again uh for joining us for this event I'd love to do another Edition where we can dive deeper into into coming up with these Maps um thank you so so much guys thank you very much thank you thanks everybody thank you
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